169. Conscious Leadership with Jennifer Mulholland and Jeff Shuck

💭 What does it mean to be a conscious leader?

Join us for a conversation with Jennifer Mulholland and Jeff Shuck, co-owners of Plenty Consulting and co-authors of "Leading with Light: Choosing Conscious Leadership when You're Ready for More." Jennifer and Jeff share their transformative journeys, exploring how heart-centered leadership can revolutionize traditional business strategies.

In this episode, Jennifer Mulholland and Jeff Shuck discuss the core pillars of conscious leadership—awareness, alignment, and intentionality. Emphasizing the importance of presence and deep listening, they highlight the role of emotional intention in creating safe team environments where collaborative decision-making thrives.

Download this episode as we explore the power of conscious leadership so you can lead with intention, authenticity, and mindfulness.

Time Code:
0:00 Introduction
2:00 Exploring Conscious Leadership
13:10 Practicing Conscious Leadership Skills
27:51 Leadership, Self-Awareness, and Co-Creation
40:40 The Power of Deep Listening
44:18 Effective Leadership

🌐 Connect with Jennifer & Jeff:
• Website: https://www.plentyconsulting.com/
• Jennifer's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermulholland/
• Jeff's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffshuck/
• Jennifer's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jhmulholland/
• Jeff's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeffshuck/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/plentyconsulting
• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PlentyConsulting/

📚 Grab a copy of the Jennifer and Jeff's book:
• Leading with Light: https://www.leadingwithlightthebook.com/

References:
• The Monk who Sold His Ferrari book by Robin Sharma
• The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe book by C.S.Lewis
• Meditations book by Marcus Aurelius

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

Well, as the famous Maya Angelou saying goes, people may forget what you said they may forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. In today's episode of the leadership project, we explore the question of what it is like to experience us as leaders. Everyone wants to feel seen, heard, and that they matter. As leaders, it is on us to create the environment where that happens. I'm joined by Jennifer Mulholland and Jeff shuck authors of leading with light. They share with us that the secret to success as a leader is achieved through awareness alignment, and being intentional. Being present is the key to making our people feel like they matter. You are going to love this impactful conversation. Stay tuned, and enjoy the show. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by two guests, we get two for one today, we're joined by Jennifer Mulholland. And Jeff shuck. Jennifer and Jeff are co owners and CO leaders of an organization called plenty consulting, that focuses on conscious leadership. And that's going to be our focus today. I'm also very excited to tell you that their recently released book co authors of a book about conscious leadership. And that's what we're going to be focusing on today, this concept, and the book is called Leading with Light, choosing conscious leadership when you're ready for more. So there's already some great concepts in here. What does it mean to Lead with Light? What does it mean this concept called conscious leadership, and what does it mean to be ready for more? So without any further ado, Jeff, and Jennifer, I'd love it. If you'd both say hello to the audience. I'd like to know a little bit more about your background. And what inspired you to be focused on this concept called Conscious Leadership. And, Jennifer, I'd like to start with you.

Jennifer Mulholland: 2:00

Okay. Thanks, Mick. We're so grateful to be here. And thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We have been on the leadership journey and the seeking path to be better human beings and better leaders ourselves for as long as we can individually and collectively remember, that's taken many different forms and different flavors. And we both have had kind of our individual ways of getting there. So I'll just maybe describe a little bit of my path. And let Jeff do the same. But you know, at a really young age, I kind of came out of the womb being a seeker and wired or human potential, I really wanted to make this world a better place. And I want it to make a massive positive difference. And I literally use those words, I think by the age of 10. So I have been on this path of wanting to be better myself, and really interested in teamwork as a result of being an athlete. And I always play team sports. So my career kind of started with success on the field. I played lacrosse and field hockey at a collegiate division one level and love to ski and almost any sport you kind of throw at me, I picked up naturally and just really loved not only being a participant among the group, but I also found my kind of niche was quarterbacking the team or being captain and kind of telling or demonstrating kind of the motivational aspect, the inspiring aspect of where we could go and grow. And that kind of took me into the corporate sector. And I found myself, you know, seeking meaning through creating new services and products for a technology company. And I loved leading people. So my leaning always was around people and Human Services. And leadership was such an at a core about the core of that of how do we know how to lead ourselves? And then how do we lead, you know, clients and customers and other people through change and through what's possible. So when Jeff and I reunited, after several incarnations of my business kind of path I have owned and created several businesses that have taken many different forms. We both had this wiring and satiation for leadership. And in fact, we work together in the corporate sector and technology. And I remember Jeff, one of the books that we you know, studied was the leadership challenge. And it was so ingrained in how we were leading our teams together, that it really did inform kind of what we started to bring forth when we merged our companies. And we had a moment where consulting on other people's models just wasn't our thing. It didn't feel authentic. What has always felt true to Jeff and myself is that we are clear channels for the muse to come through to create something new and fresh. And it doesn't mean it doesn't build upon a lot of leadership study and strategy study and other things we've done. But teaching other people stuff, just didn't feel like the clothes we wanted to wear that were Integritas to our being. And so the book really emerged from 10 years almost of doing our own leadership retreat we call Lantern at our retreat center in Park City, Utah. And that model, that method, that retreat really emerged from asking ourselves, what did we learn as a result of being leaders in our families and leaders in our companies and leaders in the world and leaders on the field? And what did we learn what didn't work? Like? What didn't resonate from all those, you know, business models and leadership models we started with, or we studied, and what emerged was really more of a heart centered, Soul centered way that came through our retreat. And then after about 10 years, we got all this data, and amazing, rich interaction with human beings that helped to inform what we share now in our book called leading with light, which really kind of conquered stylized and simplified and articulated what do we mean by conscious leadership? Why does it matter? Why should you care? And how do you use those principles to navigate a life that's so uncertain that's changing all the time, wherever you choose to show up, whether that's in your community, your family system, or your work? So there's a lot more to say, but I would just it's been an interesting, winding journey and the consciousness piece, I think, it has been an answer to not wanting to have our heads in the sand to really value awareness. And we value evolution, conscious evolution, like really growing with intention. And that's really kind of the essence of what we're here to share.

Mick Spiers: 7:19

All right, wonderful Jen. There was a few things I took away from there. The firstly, I love that you realized how important impact was going to be in your life from such an early age at the age of 10. I love that you knew what your path was, but then you carved your own path. And that's what I'm hearing that wasn't cookie cutter, that you found your own path, and that you are going to say help others to find their path as well said, Thank you so much, Jen. And we're going to unpack a lot of those concepts of our unconscious leadership as we go through the discussion. Jeff, I'd like to hear the same from yourself. What inspired you into Conscious Leadership?

Jeff Shuck: 7:55

Thank you. And thank you for having us. And yeah, I think Jen put a lot of good threads out there that we can pull on and explore. What's present to me is, you know, with the release in the book, we've been fortunate to have a lot of conversations and be doing interviews and podcasts. And we're getting this question a lot. And I have to say, Mick, every time a different answer constantly, every time I think of something different. And I think you knew my path, maybe like a lot of people's felt accidental or it felt arbitrary. And it only started to make sense to me a little bit later, in high school or as a child, I never would have said that I was a leader I would have, you know, I was great at school. I'm not great at sports, as opposed to gin, you know, that puts you in a certain mold and a certain view and other people's eyes. And I think in my own eyes, I think my mom would have told you though, that I was great at talking my way out of trouble. And I think she'd put it said, you know, when I was hanging out with my friends, if kind of something went sideways, I was the one to kind of make sure that we'd get home safely and that the adults wouldn't punish us too severely. So, there was something there in me that that was able to be persuasive and make a cogent argument. I don't know that it had a lot of kind of ethical underpinning to it. And so one of the accidental or an accidental things for me in my life was in college falling into a group of people that I really grew to love. I was in a college fraternity called Sigma Chi that ended up being really important to me. And at the end of my college days, as the university was ending, I really had no idea what I wanted to do professionally. And someone suggested that, well, Sigma Chi, you could work there for a year and you could work with other college students and you could kind of help them articulate the leadership. And so I I took this position thinking I was going to be there for nine months and I was there for almost seven years. And it became a crucible for me from defining my own ethical principles, and then being in community with people who really wanted to make themselves better and I've always been fortunate to have wonderful friends and mentors, but I think that was the first group that I was with where people intentionally talked about the decisions they made, and the ones they wish they had made differently and how they acted. And then the next day would examine whether they could have done things differently. And, and it was absolutely the antithesis of what you might imagine when if you think of college fraternity, you know, it was a bunch of philosophical, thoughtful people. And that really helped me explore, you know, there's something different that happened when we're in community with one another. And we can be authentic enough and vulnerable enough to talk about what's actually going on in our heads. And I think it was probably the first time I connected to the idea that, Oh, there's a narrative in my own head that I should pay attention to, maybe the other piece that I introduced, and then we can pull on some of those threads that you mentioned, it was also in that role that I got my first leadership job, where as a kid of 22, or 23, I was put in charge of a team of six people, which became 12 people, which became, you know, 20 people, and I was quite young person. And it was, you've written a book called your leader, now what and I needed that book, it looks really easy when you're pointing out what your manager is doing wrong. But when you're estimating the manager, you realize how easy it is to make all these mistakes. And there is no real field book for it. There's people like us and you who are kind of creating these guideposts that can help you navigate, but you got to do the navigation on your own, since that was just a huge opportunity that I'll always be grateful for is the chance to be trusted with a team of people that early in life. And of course, you know, we lead at the consent of those who are leading. And so I'm grateful that the six people on my team at that point, had enough faith in me and themselves to go through that journey together, as we figured out like how do we want to act together. So I'll stop there. But you know, now I can see none of those things were accidental, and that there was a path for me, but I think I may be more than Jen had to be way more patient. It was way less certain to me what I was meant to do and where I was going, and I had to kind of let things emerge. But other people can bring wonderful things out in us, especially when when we're in roles to influence them. And I was lucky enough to have that happen to me.

Mick Spiers: 12:25

Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for sharing that. I love your backstory there. And I love this concept of finding ourselves. So, leadership is a journey of discovery. And I like in those first leadership roles where you were helping other students to find themselves. In some regards, you were finding yourself as well, by giving someone else the guiding light in the space, you are growing yourself, and you are discovering what it meant to be Jeff Shuck, and then what impact you can bring to the world. So I absolutely love it. And we've got some really key words around authenticity that are coming through there and having the space to be able to have those discoveries. So let's get into the meat of this then Conscious Leadership. And I'm gonna come back to you on this one. Now, Jeff, what does Conscious Leadership mean?

Jeff Shuck: 13:10

Great question, I want to answer that. But I want to say one thing about authenticity and leadership that gets to Conscious Leadership. One thing I found in my leadership journey, and I think we find with people who are walking through theirs, is that we mistake what authenticity is, right? You think initially, that authenticity means modeling the way that other leaders have shown you, even though it's right there in the name, that we're actually trying to be more of ourselves. But you know, we're kind of all looking somewhere else to see, to find role models and to find guidebooks and to find sets of values. And you can mistake that for authenticity and authenticity is emerging into who you want to be right who you're meant to be. And that is the gateway into how we talk about conscious leadership. We talk about three things, maybe I'll frame up one of them and Jen probably want to get in on a couple of these. But we say Conscious Leadership is about being aware, aligned and intentional. And awareness is what I was just referring to that idea that I have, I see things around me, right, but those aren't me, I have thoughts, but I'm not my thoughts, that I can just be present to life. And if I am all the information I need, all the wisdom I need is right around me and within me. So, a lot of what we talked about in Conscious Leadership just comes to this idea of awareness of being awake, looking around being present in our lives, you know, being active participants in our lives instead of trying to get through the day to get to something else. And we say at lantern that leadership retreat that Jen mentioned 90% of Conscious Leadership is awareness is being here now. Seeing things with fresh eyes, seeing your narrative about things as different from the things themselves, right. Bad things may happen or things may happen that I think are are bad are stressful. But a lot of that is my thought about those things. So, this idea of authenticity that you were just teeing up Mick is really tied into awareness. And then we say the next two things follow from that. Maybe I'll pause there. And like, Jen, do you want to? Do you want to get in alignment and intention?

Jennifer Mulholland: 15:17

Sure, yeah. I would just maybe make a comment about awareness. I think, oftentimes what we see in our work is that there's so many executives and managers and leaders like running really fast, lots of on the hamster wheel, right, trying to be more to do more. And we often forget that the opportunity to really practice being present and bringing our full presence to wherever we're asked to show up, and wherever we're choosing to show up, really activates our capacity to see, to sense to hear and to know, when we're running so fast, we kind of disconnect and we kind of write some of the cues and symbols and signs off as happenstance. What awareness does when we are present is that we're able to see the synchronicities the signs, the things that you could possibly make up, right, that just happen you think of somebody in that call, right? How does that happen? The attunement to the green lights when you are driving down the road, the attunement to flow, but more importantly, how your body is speaking to you, does your body give you signals? When you're in a conversation that, you know, you might want to leave the conversation? Right? How do you know when your body is feeling expanded and safe and energized, or when it's telling you that actually, this, whatever's happening is not for you. So you shut down, you procrastinate, you close your arms, you know, and really starting to become more aware of this vehicle and vessel that our light embodies whatever you name that to be, that we actually become more aware of the instrument of knowledge, of wisdom of intuition to help us lead ourselves and lead others. So once we become much more aware of how our body speaks to us what's happening outside of us, when we're in a conversation, leading some unemployed, for example, not just listening to what they're saying, but where are they coming from? What are their body's cues that they're not using language to describe, but what's the feeling in the interaction, right? That is nuanced leadership, nuanced, awareness is deep, it's mature, it's practiced. And when we can start to do that for ourselves, and starting to become more aware of the needs of who we lead, then we can choose to be more in alignment with that. So we start to get cues about how do I know when I'm in alignment with a relationship with a project with a client? What are the cues that my body tells me? This is on or off? We love to use the question, do I feel expanded? Or do I feel contracted? It's super simple. We all have different ways our body tells us, but it's a great indicator to say, am I in alignment, or am I out of alignment with what wants to come through and in our language with the light that we are and the light that's in another. And then lastly, that kind of emerges? Once we become more and aligned to what works for us and aligned to the light that we are, then we can then use intention. We can choose consciously how we show up, where we show up, where we don't show up what we're participating in, how we want to feel at the end of the day, or at the end of the business meeting or at the end of the project. And we start to realize how powerful we are in setting that intention and manifesting it that life actually doesn't happen to us. We are co creators in participating in this juicy, rich, vital, sacred blessed life we get to live. And one of our jobs is becoming more aware aligned and intentional with how we show up where we show up and who we show up with.

Mick Spiers: 19:27

All right, wonderful. We're off to a flying start here, I love this. So, big takeaway awareness, alignment and intentionality. I want to share with you and unpack all three of those one at a time want to share with you what I was taking away around awareness first of all, and test this with you. So, Jeff you were talking about, we often fall into the trap of just I'm going to say mimicking the behavior of leaders that went before us. So when we're talking about this authenticity, we haven't really found ourselves yet we might have been thrown into a first time leadership role and our default position might be to mimic the behavior of those before us. And that is going to come back again, in my reflection in a moment, then we spoke about this element of being present, being mindful being present. And in the moment, the first thing we're going to say is, if we're not present, how can we be aware? How can we be really paying attention? And being a receptacle for the things that are happening around us if we're not present? is the first part. And then the second part, what does it feel like to experience me as a leader, and I'm gonna say, if you're listening to this in the audience, all of you are, at some point, have had a leader where you didn't feel like they are present, and it doesn't feel good. And to use your term, Jen, you were talking about being in a conversation and whether you're expanded or contracted, or whether you're looking for the exit door, you're in a conversation, and something doesn't feel comfortable. And it might be because the other person was not being present. So, my first reflection here for everyone listening around this awareness is it starts with presence, to ask yourself, and this comes to a little bit to intentionality as well. But we'll come to those in a moment. Ask yourself the question, when you're in those meetings, are you truly present? And are you doing it in a way where the other person is going to notice and feel that you're present? How does that sit with you? Jen, let's go with you.

Jennifer Mulholland: 21:21

Yeah. Well, I would just say it's such a practice because we get hijacked all the time, like our whether we are like practicing present and being present is just human nature that something will come in to our field and just hijack our attention. And there we go. And now I'm not present, right. And so the basics of just noticing the environment. So we're on a zoom call so I to practice present in this moment, my cat just me out, right, and he's 21 years old, and there goes the hijack thinking of shit, don't me out during the call, right? And so how do I bring myself back? Well, I bring myself back to notice like, oh, Mick, what color shirt you're wearing. And I noticed the headphones on your your head and I noticed your eyes. And I noticed, like the physical characteristics of what right in front of me, I bring my attention back and then I bring my attention to my body. How am I feeling? Am I speaking fast is my breath rate and heart rate pumping and just really tactile sensations that help us bring us back into noticing the physical environment, the room, the sky, if you're outside the birdsong that's really helpful to bring us into the moment of what do you see sense here feel know in this moment, so I just want to encourage whoever's listening, we're right along practicing presence with you, because it's just the nature of up there I go, I just went away. But the commitment to practice presence is beyond just being here, which Eckhart Tolle does a beautiful job in speaking about being here, and now like really dropping in and practicing that, I think what we also are speaking about is presence, is when you enter a room, you leave an imprint, you leave an impression, your team members feel your leadership beyond what you say, oftentimes, it's not what you say. It's sometimes how you say it, the tone that you're leaving the energy, but we live in an energetic world, and we're energetic beings. And so our leadership way oftentimes has nothing to do with what we're voicing and what we're telling others to do. But it's how we're leaving them feel. It's the impression we're leaving behind. And so when we're practicing presence, yes, we're showing up, but we're bringing our full capacity to be there there. And we are channeling that presence in a way that hopefully want to leave a positive impression. And so there's a lot of people that aren't conscious or aware that their leadership style or when they show up in a room, or the way that they're leading is having a real negative impression. Right, it's demoralizing. It's draining, it's sucking the life force out of the team is causing dysfunction. And so we get to decide and practice really being fully there to notice how do we feel in receiving other people's presence but then how are we making others feel when we choose to show up?

Mick Spiers: 24:51

I'm loving this gentleman. What I'm picking up is something that's very multi sensory, and omni directional. Now, what do I mean by that? So First of all, when we are present, we can be more aware of our surroundings. So that would be the outward sensory experience. But then we can also be aware of our presence impacts others, how are we making them feel. So if we are distracted, and we're not present, we might be giving a signal that you know what, you don't matter to me, you don't matter to me because I can't even put my phone down for five minutes to have a proper conversation with you. Or it could be in our body language. There's a thing called reflective learning where people are always taking these little sideways glances towards either the leader or someone that they respect, which might be a natural leader in the room. They're taking these little sideways glances go, should I feel safe here? Am I okay? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not sure yet. You got to be aware of your presence, because you're having an instant impact on everyone else's experience in the room. And you could be the difference between whether they're having a positive experience right now or a negative experience. And you are impacting the way that they feel. And coming back to your part about I really liked by the way, this expansion or contraction? Or are they looking for the door? Are they looking for the excuse to get out of the room right now, because they're not comfortable? And they don't feel like they're seen, they're heard or they're valued in the current environment, because of the way that the leader is showing up?

Jennifer Mulholland: 26:20

Yeah. Well, just one more comment, and then I'll turn it over, Jeff, to you. I think one other comment, I love how you describe that. But it's omni directional and multi sensory, there is a performance benefit to that. There's a perform team performance result that happens when we can be more multi sensory and omni directional in taking information, what happens is we're able to connect the dots at a faster capacity. And as a result, we're able to see connections, those connections lead to solutions, which lead to quicker efficiency, performance, and a kind of short cut the path to solution or the trajectory of success, in my opinion. So the more we can train ourselves to be multi dimensional, multi sensory with awareness, you will find that you can connect the dots much faster to get to your the solution you're looking for. And it may not be linear, it may come in an insight in when you get out of the shower, when you walk through the doorway, and all of a sudden, you have the answer. It's because you have collected the information in a broader way rather than such a focused intellectual linear way. That I think is what on the path to team performance and business performance and leadership success is something we're seeking.

Jeff Shuck: 27:51

Yes, to all of it. I think when I would, when occurs to me that I'd add. You know, Mick, when you were talking about or when you're both talking about this multi sensory way of being in you talked about, you know, being aware of what I'm seeing around me, and then being aware of how I'm making others feel, I think there's a huge piece of it, that we haven't talked about yet that is being aware of my narrative, and that the more we do the work that we do, that is the frontier that's most interesting to me, right? I think there's so much leadership, text and practice around what I need to know, right? How do I learn what's around me? And then how do I influence others and or affirm others or validate them or whatever, all those things? What's interesting to me is the last frontier, I think, for a lot of people who are trying to practice a different way of being is being actually aware of the conversation that you have most often, which is the conversation with yourself, the conversation that you're narrating all the time. And that really is the first light switch, I think for most of the people we work with is Oh, wow, I'm commenting, I'm judging, I'm deciding in advance, you know, and just seeing that narrative that exists that we talk a lot with our clients about journaling, or meditation or yoga, or all these mindfulness tools that are designed to calm your mind. So you can actually be more present to that narrative. And I don't know if there's a hierarchy to it, or, you know, you talked earlier about presence leads to awareness, or I don't know what the taxonomy is, I don't know what the hierarchy is. I think I view it more like a web that these things are related and they kind of cause each other. Am I more by being more present? Does that allow me to be more authentic? Or is it the opposite is that because I'm more authentic and willing to see who I am? I can be more present to what's around me or all of that, right? It doesn't really matter. But I think what we're pointing to, I just want to make this point about the awareness and the idea of being conscious that we practice so much with people around us. You get to a certain point in your career. You are a leader and you navigate the Now what, but we navigate it in relation to other people, we navigate it to get a goal accomplished to lead other people to greatness. And then at a certain point, you get to the top of that ladder. And there's another now what? And that now what describes, what do I really want? And what do I get out of that? And you realize at some point like, well, I'm trying to get a PhD and leading others. And the PhD I need is the PhD and me, no one except to you has the PhD of MC, no one except Jennifer has the PhD and Jennifer, no one, but me will ever unlock the PhD and Jeff Shuck. And they think it's noble and such a worthy use of time to say, I'm going to do that. And now that can lead to over analysis and you know, more mental grinding. And that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, though, taking responsibility of how you interact in the world enough that you're willing to say, I'm responsible for my thoughts, I'm responsible for noticing them. I'm responsible for changing them if they're not working for me, or finding ways to let them go. So yes, this is a long way of saying. Yes, absolutely. Let's build our skill and seeing what's around us. And let's definitely build our skill in empowering the people around us, because that's needed more than ever. But if we're not able to be more self aware, self reflective, self improving, I think we're never going to create the change that we all want to see in the world, we're all going to be waiting for someone else to lead us there, when it starts with changing and what we think and how we think about ourselves.

Mick Spiers: 31:34

Yeah, wonderful. There's two things I want to unpack there. Firstly, something that Jen said about solutioning and finding solutions. And I'm going to throw the word out there cocreation. So, when we all show up as present, and we come into a conscious conversation, and I'm still going to love this, again, this sort of expanding instead of contracting, where we're holding space for each other in a way that we can expand, that's when we can co create those solutions. If we come in, in a contracted mind, we're only going to hear the things that we already believe. And we're not going to hold space for new information or new ideas to come. Whereas if you can get a group of people in a room that are all open with an open mind and open heart and an open wheel, to hold space for each other and build on each other and have an expansive conversation, that's when you're going to go oh, it will. If that's true, that means that this can be true. And this can be true. And before you know it, you've gone on our journey towards those solutions that you're talking about. So the word cocreation came to mind, if we're holding space for each other. And then Jeff, this thought around the narrative, I really believe that there's almost nothing more powerful in the world than the story that we tell ourselves in our own head. And that can be a powerful and empowering story. Or it can be quite a negative and limiting story. So, let's talk about this word, intentionality. It was the third in the trinity that we're talking about here. Let's unpack it a little bit more. In the story. In my head, I could be telling myself negative things like I'm not really good at this leadership stuff, I'm very uncomfortable. And that becomes self fulfilling. Or you could write your own narrative that says, I'm the kind of leader who turns up as my authentic self shows my team that I'm present, and hold space for others and empowers their success. So if we tell ourselves that story, before we go into any meeting, I am the kind of leader who and then you finish off that sentence, you can then show up as the leader that you want to be writing your own narrative which comes to this intentionality, how does those two things fit with you this concept of CO creating and holding space for each other, but then the narrative even before you enter the room, to remind yourself of the leader that you want to be.

Unknown: 33:49

Oh, maybe I'll take the first one and Jeff, if you want to tee up the second one, or vice versa. We love the word co creation. And we talk about that in leading with light and this idea that we're all made of light, whether you call that source or spirit or God or this essence, this place we all are designed from and the idea that there's a larger light guiding us. And again, whatever you name that to be you could call that divine math or nature or the universe or Buddha or Jesus Christ, that we're a part of something more. And when we talk about being co creative beings, we are not only co creating together, we're also co creating with this higher light this something that's bigger than ourselves. We fundamentally believe that the wisdom is in the collective, the wisdoms in the room, and we all have equal parts in that play. What sometimes gets in the way of that is a leader thinking they know what needs to be done, or they know what the outcome should be. And then what happens is we we limit. What you're speaking to Mick, is the artful need to create safe space to create an environment in your team or in a conversation where people feel open, open to be themselves open to share open to be heard. And when we do that, then the juice, the wisdom gets to bubble up in an unscripted way. And whomever is either facilitating leading, listening, the art is in really deeply listening to what is bubbling up. And in that space emerges. Something that I would bet nobody really came into the room thinking that what gets to be played with in that co creative space often is bigger than any one person in that room. And that's magic, right? It's so cool. It's what happened when Jeff and I merged our efforts. It's like, Wow, we had great ideas individually, but you combine those in a co creative effort, and we created something that's bigger than all of us. And so that is a wonderful invitation to leaders is to create space where people feel safe and open to be heard and to share their fullness, their ideas, without limitation to bubble up and talk about what's not working, what are the elephants in the room? What are the sticky, you know, things that are just getting in the way, and to be comfortable and courageous enough to not know where that conversation has to go? Because where it's going to go if you're open to it, and that co creative space is unpredictable. And oftentimes, it's so exactly what is needed, that everybody then starts to see themselves in the solution or in the conversation and guess what that does, it creates buy in, right, it creates a connection for everybody to want to participate in wherever that is LED. And so I love the term and we believe we are co creative beings. We are a communal species, as human beings, we're not meant to live and be alone. And so how do we harness that full potential and capacity in ourselves in the people that we lead, to feel safe to feel heard you feel open so that we can co create something bigger than all of us that benefits the highest and greatest good of all involved, including the people we serve? That's the magic.

Jeff Shuck: 37:36

Yeah, I want to get to the intentionality piece. But just to link to go back to this web, and to link Jen's comments and your comments about co creation, to the internal narrative. We do a lot of work where we help groups where we facilitate co creative discussions, meetings, workshops, innovation sessions. And you can only really get there if the people if every individual in the room is willing to say my part matters, I have something to say it's valued. And I value what I bring to the table. If everybody's sitting there going. The marketing people again, they never know what they're talking about. Or Betsy, how did she get that promotion? Right? If we have those conversations going on inside of us, we can't make something better, we can't bring something together. So, there is a relationship here. There you make so beautifully described the power of intention. And I don't know what we could add to it because you nailed that. Maybe what I would try to add to it is there's so many of us doing work like this, that talk about wanting the world to be different than it is. And one of the things I'd say is the world right now is what you get when you celebrate output above everything. When you celebrate more, more, more, more profit, more, more, more, more product, make more and make it cheaper, get more productivity from people get more from the bottom line, right? What you're actually talking about in the intentionality we're talking about is valuing inputs. Instead of celebrating outputs, bringing attention to input instead of what do I get out of it? What can I bring to it? What do I want? What do I imagine? And I think you said it beautifully the come from is intention, right? How do I want to be as a leader, knowing that when I do strategic planning and put my forecasts in a spreadsheet, it's just kind of BS, I'm not predicting the future. I'm not in control of the output. So, if I'm not. Then I could say, Well, what I want from the year from our strategic plan is we achieved the most that we can by harnessing the talents of everyone in this room in a way that we all feel more fulfilled. And we benefit our stakeholders and we benefit our shareholders, that sets us up to say, let's align on what we can do on what we can bring to what we can create. That's intention, and I think necessarily in our world takes some of the focus off of the tyranny of output of what do I get out of it? What's in it for me? You know, we've reached the limit of what that can do for ourselves and for the world? What's in it for me? If we start with what could it be? What could I envision? How can I call the best forth for myself? And from all the people I'm with that intentionality leads to the co creation that you and Jen are talking about? Right? So again, it's this web of wonderful concepts that kind of all come together in this place of how can I be aware of what I want? How can I make decisions that are aligned to that? And how can I make sure those decisions are better for everyone together, but I love that you took us to intentionality with co creation, because the two are really, really connected. Yeah. And just one more thing, too, is like, I think in the business world, there has been such a joke and aversion to being woowoo and touchy feely. But intention is about how you want to feel, asking yourself that asking the team that that really intention that come from is a feeling it's not a heady, knowing it's how do I want to feel at the end of this meeting today? How do I want to feel at the end of this call? How do I want to feel at the end of this day, that brings the broader spectrum of experiences to bear that will manifest that feeling? We don't need to know how it has to come in. But one of the ways we can become the leaders we're looking for is get clear on how you want to feel leading.

Mick Spiers: 41:31

Yeah. Really powerful, Jen. And that's it. That's what we need to think about individually. How do we want to feel? How do we want others to feel? How do we want them to experience this meeting? How do we want them to experience us is a big part of that as well. I heard three things in there, I want to play it back to you, Jeff, and Jen and see what you think so. Absolutely, Jen, I couldn't have said it better myself, we can co create something that's greater than the sum of the parts, when we hold space for each other. The second part was when we are holding space, when we are truly open. Everyone needs to feel safe to do so first of all, but something that you were touching on Jeff, they need to feel like it's going to matter. If they feel like, you know, I could share my opinion, but you know, no one's gonna listen to me anyway, then they're not likely to speak up, it's a waste of their time. So they need to know, why am I here? Why is this important. And if I do share an opinion, that is going to be heard, it's going to be valued. And it's going to matter. And that starts with making sure that people are legitimately limited listening to each other. Listening is not the same as waiting for your turn to talk. And yet so many people go into a meeting with are this is what I'm gonna say. And they've forgotten to listen to everyone else around them to do that cocreation to build on each other. All they're doing is waiting for their turn to talk. And by doing that, it's got to be collective, everyone's got to come in and be open, not contracted. They've got to come in and to be ready to imagine a new reality that you're talking about, Jeff. You're going well, what if? And the what if can be a positive thing. So, often in conversations the what if is a negative risk aversion? Or what if this happened? Yeah, what if this happened, right? How about we reframe that into a positive? Imagine what could happen, which I think was the words that you use Jeff. And then the third one was the ownership. Jen, you're talking about what then happens afterwards? If people feel like they got their fingerprints all over that solution? What do they do, they leave the room with excitement ready to implement it. But if they didn't feel heard, if they didn't feel part of the co creation, they probably leave the room skeptical, and not ready to support the course of action. So, by holding this space, if you are a leader, who you might have very solid ideas about where you want the team to go. But if the team don't feel like they co created with you, are they really going to take any ownership? Are they really going to be excited to implement it? Or are they going to walk out of the room grumbling going? Oh, well, that was a waste of my time. thoughts around those three things, co create something greater than the experience that everyone has to show up ready to truly be open and listen to each other. And then when they do feel like they've been heard, they walk away with deep ownership of what just happened.

Jennifer Mulholland: 44:18

I just want to point out that you're modeling with us. Exactly, I think what the takeaway is around deep listening, I love what you are actively modeling in reflection you are making Jeff and I feel heard. Because you at every moment of our share, you're recapping and reflecting back as if you're a mirror did I hear you correctly? This is my takeaway. And that model as a leader is so powerful because at the end of the day, everybody wants to feel seen and heard. It's our basic some of our basic kind of nutrients that we need to succeed and thrive in life. And so, if you're listening to Mick and you're hearing how he's doing this, that is such a beautiful model for what action you can take right now in how you are having a conversation with your spouse or partner or children, or team members or boss is, this is what I heard you saying? Did I get it? Right? My takeaway is this, that is an artful practice of conscious leadership is making sure that we're hearing taking in the information digesting it. And is it an accurate reflection of what that other person wanted us to get? So I just besides the three points, I just wanted to point that out, because I think it's incredible. Maybe I think on the last point around, when the buy in piece, I just want to talk about that, I think as we've lived both right and have had led large teams, small teams, beautiful teams, difficult teams, all the flavors in our careers, and oftentimes, no doubt, it feels faster, more efficient, and better to run with what you think, you know, right? This is what we need to do, let's go do it. But over and over again, when you're trying to mobilize a team or you're leading a large movement or organization, even if you might be right, the best thing to do is involve your people, because that buy in peace a you don't know, maybe they build upon your idea, maybe there's something that actually they take the idea, and it just takes a different form, and you seated it perfectly, but maybe it takes a different kind of implementation, if you will, but the choice to include other people to participate in cocreating the direction the strategy, the solution is so powerful in again, helping you get to where you want to go in a much more effective and efficient way. It takes the I can't just stress enough the efficiency, it takes years off of sometimes implementation of what leaders like oftentimes will see board members like try and take on the board the strategy or the executive leadership team, and then they'll create a committee committee to go create the strategic plan, you know, in a room off by themselves, and then present it in PowerPoint a gazillion times, you know, that kind of thing. It doesn't work, it's outdated, the moment those people come out of the boardroom or come out of the design process, because the right people weren't in the room, they weren't involved. So now you're gonna have to spend so much time convincing, selling, training on language, getting them to be ambassadors, helping them understand what you're talking about to implement, and to repeat, rather than involving them in the process, where then all of that goes away, because you don't need to convince them, they actually have been activated in their heart, mind, soul body intrinsically, to choose how they are going to speak about what they just had a hand in creating. And it's just so much more effective and efficient. And I think it's just a, I don't know that it just feels so old school to do the top down approach of you know, especially creating strategy and leadership that way, it's just not what people need. And honestly, at the end of the day, it's so much less efficient. So if you have a choice, involve your people, because you're gonna learn so much more, and it'll be much more effective.

Jeff Shuck: 48:42

I'd love to add two points to that, that I didn't come back to make the three reflections that you shared, and would echo what Jen said about how nice it is to be in your care and experience your leadership. So thank you. I think when we're talking about alignment, and co creation, and the connection of those, one point we sometimes need to work on with leaders and teams is alignment doesn't mean compromise. I hope people can hear that. And what we're saying, you know, compromise is we take everybody's view, and we kind of get the average of it. And everyone leaves feeling like they had to give something up. And true alignment and co creation. Everyone leaves feeling like they got something more than they could have gotten on their own. And I think you know, particularly like in the political systems that we see that aren't feeling like they're working trust, they're compromises built in. And again, I would say we kind of have gotten to the end of where those systems can get us. They're made to tamp everything down. So just as people are listening, I want to draw that distinction. We're not talking about pulling everyone and then creating the average of what's what's there. And the other thing I'd say this may be the yes and to Jen's point into your reflection Mick, is there are times I think a leader needs to be clear on his or her decision rules. And what I mean by that is There are times that we always want to make sure everyone is heard and everyone is fully engaged in deployed in the work and that they're able to give their best. That doesn't mean that necessarily everyone gets a vote. And we had one of the most wonderful leaders, we had the chance to work with always used to say, everyone has a voice, not everyone has a vote. And he'd start meetings. And he would say, here are the decision rules. You know, here are the three people with votes on this 20. Other people have voices. And I haven't heard 10 of those voices. And I want to make sure I hear them. But you know, there's so much uncertainty in the world and in our businesses and organizations, a leaders job isn't to eliminate that uncertainty. However, in decision making leaders for leaders often tolerate a lot of uncertainty because it lets them off the hook. So, when you're making a decision, I think it's incumbent on great leaders to say, here's how I'm going to make the decision, and be upfront that not everyone might get to input on it, or that you're going to listen to everyone's input. But here's how you're going to choose. I think that's why sometimes leaders get themselves in trouble. They, they want to be so light, you know, they want to be liked and admired, and they want to show that everyone was heard. But then it gets tough for them. Because they make a decision that not everybody agrees with, they don't know how to navigate that. And you can make it easier yourself up front by saying, here's how I intend to make this decision. And when it's a group decision, and many decisions can be group decisions, say, I think this is a group decision, we're going to take a vote, or sometimes Jen and I will facilitate a group and we're gonna say, private ballot, you know, there's all kinds of tools that you can use to make sure everyone is heard. And everyone feels that they can do it in a way that's not compromising to them. But when it's time to make a decision that you have to make, sometimes we also have to again, be authentic, and conscious and present, and be willing to say, this one's on me, and I'll explain how and why I made it. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna make it differently because you disagree with me. So, I just want to point those two things out as kind of the, again, more sophisticated practices you get to when you're in this space.

Mick Spiers: 52:03

I think that was a really important thing to add, Jeff. So, we're not talking about democracy. And we're not talking about compromise, and that people should be coming away from the conversation with more, not less. So, it wasn't that they gave something up, it was that they gained something from the conversation. And it comes back to this building upon each other not compromising with each other. I think that's really powerful. And it is a good one to think about around that decision making strategy as well. And then to your points Jen, interesting because there's a double whammy here isn't there. Everyone wants to feel like they're seen, heard, and that they matter? And how do we build ownership, we make people feel seen and heard. It's like a double whammy, they get what they want, psychologically, their psychological needs are met. And then when they leave the room, they're going to feel empowered, and engaged and energized to go and take great ownership of the results of whatever course of action you collectively landed upon by the time they leave the room. So it's almost like, you could ask the question, why would you do this? The answer is why wouldn't you do this? This is dead obvious, right? But it also requires intentional practice to make it happen. It's not something that just happens by accident.

Jennifer Mulholland: 53:16

Yeah. And there's just such a symbiotic benefit to that I love that you just pointed out because the other benefit is the leader has to do less micromanagement. Because with empowered employees and empowered team members who are intrinsically motivated, you have to tell them what to do when and where a lot less than you would if you didn't. And so that frees up the leader to be more creative, do more things that light them up while the team is doing what lights them up.

Mick Spiers: 53:49

Yeah, wonderful Jen. All right, I'm going to bring us to a close now I'm going to just mention a few things and just say subconscious leadership, you know, start with this thought about being present, being aware, driving towards alignment of yourself and others and having this intentionality. So, having this intentionality starts well before any meeting starts really setting the scene of who we're the leader, that you want to be. The narrative that Jeff talks about the story that you tell yourself about yourself inside your head, and then what it's like to experience you, How do other people experience you? Are you holding space for them? And how can you create the environment where others are doing the same for each other. And that's where we can get to this situation where it's not just Conscious Leadership, it's everyone in the room is being conscious and aware of each other. And then you can co create something well beyond the capabilities of any single individual that came into the room. There's a lot to take away from today's discussion. I'm gonna encourage people you might want to listen to this episode two or three times to think about how you're going to go away and put this into action. So, Jen and Jeff, thanks So much for your time. I want to come to our rapid round now. So, I want to give both you the opportunity to answer these questions. And I know that they're challenging questions. Firstly, what's the one thing you know, now that you wish you knew when you were 20? And Jeff, we'll start with you.

Jeff Shuck: 55:15

Boy, you're right where you need to be.

Mick Spiers: 55:17

Yeah, that's really powerful. I think it speaks for itself. And that's a really good one for everyone to stop and reflect on how that agent.

Jennifer Mulholland: 55:25

No surprises similar, but everything works out for me.

Mick Spiers: 55:29

Good, that's a powerful affirmation to tell yourself as well come back to narrative. Love it. What's your favorite book? Let's go with you, Jen.

Jennifer Mulholland: 55:36

Oh, gosh, I have so many. So, I'm just gonna pick one that I really enjoyed. And that got a chance to study with Robin Sharma, The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari.

Mick Spiers: 55:48

Okay, good one. All right. Well done. And Jeff?

Jeff Shuck: 55:51

Its totally unfair question. As you know Mick, I don't know if it's my favorite. I can tell you. There's one book I've read in every decade of my life. And it is the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I find it to have so much fantasy and optimism and so many layers of metaphor to it. And it just reminds me of how I want to be.

Mick Spiers: 56:11

Yeah, I love it. All right. And finally, what's your favorite quote, Jeff?

Jeff Shuck: 56:15

Again, unfair. I want to point that this is unfair. A great quote that's had a huge impact on me is from another great book. The Meditations by Marcus are real. Yes. He wrote, "Don't waste time debating what a good person should be. Be one."

Mick Spiers: 56:30

Oh, yeah. Oh, I love that. You're really good. How about you, Jen? What's your favorite quote?

Jennifer Mulholland: 56:36

Richard Bach, "To be a star, you must shine your own light. follow your own path. And don't worry about the darkness for that is when stars shine brightest."

Mick Spiers: 56:47

Oh, yeah. Another powerful reminder. I love it. And either of you can answer this question. Lastly, there's going to be people that are listening to this, that are enthralled either by your work your book? Or maybe they're interested in plenty consulting in your retreats and the work that you do. How do people find you?

Jennifer Mulholland: 57:04

Well, if you're interested in the book, you can go to www.leadingwithlightthebook.com. And if you're interested in learning about our executive coaching and consulting and retreats, you can go to plentyconsulting.com, as well. And we're on social media in all forms. So, check us out, we'd love to connect with you.

Mick Spiers: 57:28

All right, wonderful. Now, I'm gonna say he, we have done exactly what we preach in this conversation. I feel richer for this conversation as in to use Jeff words I'm taking away from this conversation more than what I came in with. It was not a substantive conversation. It was an additive conversation. I really feel like this has been very powerful for me personally. So, thank you both for your time, and for sharing your insights and wisdom today.

Jennifer Mulholland: 57:55

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And you gave us that same feeling. So,

Jeff Shuck: 58:01

Yeah.

Jennifer Mulholland: 58:01

Thank you for all the goodness that you're putting out in the world. And we're glad to do.

Jeff Shuck: 58:07

Thanks for what you do and how you do it.

Mick Spiers: 58:08

You've been listening to The Leadership Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project that Project. In the next episode, I'll be joined by Leah Mether, mickspiers.com A huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video and we explore what it takes to lead people courageously through editing of all of our video content. And to all of the team change. As leaders, sometimes we're driving change, and other times change is thrust upon us, and we need to be able to steer through the storm. You don't want to miss this conversation. at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week. And you can follow us on social particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Now in the meantime, please do take care. Look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.