185. The Role of Vulnerability in Leadership with Tony Martignetti

💭 Ever found yourself excelling in a career that leaves you feeling empty?

Tony Martinetti, host of the Virtual Campfire podcast, knows this feeling all too well. With a 25-year legacy in biotech finance, Tony realized the need for deeper connections and personal fulfillment, prompting a courageous shift to leadership coaching. His journey underscores the importance of understanding when success doesn't align with our true selves and highlights the power of stepping out of a comfort zone to pursue a meaningful path.

We explore the critical themes of authenticity in leadership and the exhaustion that comes from wearing a metaphorical mask. Tony shares compelling stories and practical advice on how leaders can cultivate self-awareness, embrace vulnerability, and foster genuine connections within their teams. By shedding inauthentic behaviors, leaders unlock the potential for enhanced innovation and collaboration, building stronger, more cohesive teams.

The conversation also reveals the transformative impact of bringing personal passions into the workplace. Through the story of a data scientist turned violinist, Tony illustrates how sharing our true selves can foster a more inclusive and psychologically safe work environment. From overcoming fears of judgment to embracing the entrepreneurial mindset, this episode is packed with insights on how authenticity and vulnerability can drive personal and professional growth. Don't miss this inspiring discussion on how being real can pave the way for deeper connections and a more fulfilling career.

🌐 Connect with Tony:
• Website: https://www.ipurposepartners.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonymartignett1/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inspiredpurposecoach

📚 You can purchase Tony's books at Amazon:
• Campfire Lessons for Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1032428996/
• Climbing The Right Mountain: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B096LS2NBZ/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Deep Connection in Leadership
• 6:30 Authentic Leadership and Deep Connection
• 16:20 Building Deep Connection Through Authenticity
• 21:56 [Ad] Business & Society with Senthil Nathan
• 22:44 (Cont.) Building Deep Connection Through Authenticity
• 23:22 Unleashing Authenticity and Inclusion
• 30:01 Embracing Authenticity for Relatable Leadership
• 37:31 Overcoming Fear and Embracing Change
• 38:36 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 39:27 (Cont.) Overcoming Fear and Embracing Change
• 47:12 Embracing Learning and Connection

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

There is an incredible power in building a deep connection as a leader. The Secret to Building a deep connection lies in authenticity and vulnerability. In today's episode, I am joined by author Tony Martignetti. Tony shares with us hard truths about what holds us back from sharing our true selves at work and the great benefits that lie just the other side of stepping out of our comfort zones and being authentic as a leader, this interview is full of golden tips for all of us. Enjoy the show. Hey everyone and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Tony Martignetti. Tony is the host of a podcast called the Virtual Campfire, which is about Leadership and Campfire discussions with leaders. And he's a thought leader in leadership. He's an advisor, he's a coach, and he's the author of two books, climb, Climbing the Right Mountain and Campfire Lessons for Leaders. And today, one of his areas of expertise is about developing a deep connection as a leader, and that's what we're going to unpack. And I think this Virtual Campfire, the Campfire Lessons, the Campfire sessions. That sounds like a deep connection to me, so I think that's where our nose is going to lead us today. So let's see how we go Tony without any further ado. I'd love it if you would say hello to the audience. I'd love to know a little bit about your background and what inspired you into this world of leadership today.

Tony Martignetti: 1:46

Wonderful. First of all, thank you so much for welcoming into this session. I feel, you know, like we're going to have a great conversation today. So I'm thrilled to explore So a little background on me is, you know, I I spent most of my career working in the biotech industry and the high tech and biotech industry. 25 years of working in the industry, and it was really an amazing place to be. I learned a lot, but what was interesting is I played a role of being a finance and strategy professional, and it wasn't really who I who I am. It was something that I thought I was, you know, I kind of followed this path that was laid out for me based on what people thought would be good for me. Like, you should go and do this. It's like, it's like the old saying, if you remember the graduate, you know, plastics Benjamin, follow plastics. The path was that, you know, this would be a great, lucrative plan. But in reality, I think my heart was always someplace else, but I was successful, and so I continued, and until I got to the point where, you know, I had done a lot of work, but I was feeling the sense of something's missing. Something was not really quite right. And so I got to, you know, the place where I said to myself, maybe it's time for me to think about what is real for me, what I really want, what I want to experience. And I the the calling came in a moment of of really real, realizing that it was time for me to shift and do the work of connecting with people on a deeper level. And I decided to leave a biotech boardroom and literally walk out of the room and say, I'm going to to leave the room to change the room, and that's what was my calling, to become a leadership development professional and coach. It wasn't something that was naturally like happening just out of the blue. I mean, it just kind of happened from this place of being frustrated by the way leaders were showing up and realizing I had to do something different. And so first I panicked, then I started making plans, and that's really what led me into this path.

Mick Spiers: 4:08

Well, Well done. Well done on the transition. A very familiar story, I have to say. I'm going to share three things I picked up on there. First of all, I love this leave the room to fix the room. That's brilliant. You the language that you used, I was playing the role of. You didn't say I was a finance professional. I was this, or whatever you said. I was playing the role of today. The role of finance professional is, is played by by Tony martinetti. It sounds like you're going to be performing in a like method acting or whatever, and you're immersing yourself in a world, but it's not really you,

Tony Martignetti: 4:47

Yeah, yeah. And then I wish it felt like play, but it was.

Mick Spiers: 4:52

A little more serious than that. But then the other thing you said is, because you were very good at it, like you would have been driving success, you would have. Been, I'm going to say, well, paid, it would have been pretty hard to turn you back on what was lucrative?

Tony Martignetti: 5:09

Yes, yes. And that's what a lot of people struggle with, is this, you know, how do you leave something that's good to go to something else, right? You know, oftentimes that's the hardest thing. If you're leaving something that's painful, like if you put your finger on a hot stove and you say, Oh, that's hot, of course you're going to take your finger off, but if you are, you know, holding on to something that's really good and pleasant. You know, leaving that is is hard to go to something that's unknown. Now I'm not saying that my experience in that world was all good. It was just that I was successful. I had some creature comforts that I was, you know, used to, but I knew there was something missing, and I had to kind of throw a lot of things away to please that one thing that needed to be taken care of, which is my sense of of identity and my sense of meaning and fulfillment, which all had to which is really important. And I think a lot of us struggle with that is this sense of like, Oh, am I okay with getting uncomfortable? I question that. And I'll just, you know, I don't want to go too on, too far on this, but people often say, like, Oh, I'm I'm fine with being uncomfortable, but when it comes down to it, do we really want to get uncomfortable?

Mick Spiers: 6:31

Well, great things happen just the other side of our comfort zone, but it's not comfortable. That's the very definition. It's not comfortable, but sometimes it's worth it, right? So curious question about the frustration, and there may not be a black and white answer to this. Tony, were you frustrated with what was there, or were you frustrated with what was missing? So in other words, was it a yearning to go this is not fulfilling, or were you getting frustrated in the I really can't do this job anymore. You're with me, It's kind of.

Tony Martignetti: 7:04

Yeah, yeah. It's a great you pull it. It's a great question. And I think that's something that is it was leading up to that moment that had me feeling the sense of, okay, something's missing, but I can deal with it. But then you start to see a lot of the chinks in the kinks in the armor. That's the right word. But this idea that, like, wow, wait a minute, I'm starting to see things in with different eyes. I'm starting to see things from the perspective of maybe things aren't as good as I thought they were, and I was holding on to something that I thought was precious, meaning an industry that was one of, you know, caring for patients, having a good purpose. And ultimately, the there are some things about that industry that I wasn't really seeing because I was, I was seeing them through a rosy colored glasses. And so that started to kind of wear down, and that moment when I left was because I started to see most clearly that, no, I'm done. Like trying to fit in here, it's time for me to step out.

Mick Spiers: 8:11

So I'm picking up two things, Tony. One is in congruence with who you are. So it didn't feel like this is not me anymore. It's or and a realization it's not me. It may not have been you ever a realization that this is not me. And second, the identification of a problem that you saw needed to be addressed in the world. Tell me more about the problem. What problems were you seeing in leadership?

Tony Martignetti: 8:37

Yeah, the problem I was seeing with leadership is this? This this the ability, well, I should say ability, this thing where people, some some leaders, were putting up faces, putting up a mask, you know, holding back their own insecurities and their ability to to show their true selves by, you know, showing a strong face, or trying to protect their image with a mask. And I think ultimately, that's what was showing up in a lot of the rooms that I was going into, and seeing some of those leaders who were acting tough or trying to prove themselves because they felt like they had to, they couldn't show what they really felt or what was really real for them, or that they might not know all the answers. And so with those masks that are showing up, it gets really tiring after a while. You know, when you have to continue to be something you're not or show up in a different in a way that isn't you really, you eventually get fatigued by putting on that mask. And in many ways, that's what I was doing, is that I was trying to be something that I was not. I was putting in a on a mask of being someone who's very strong analytically and you know how to think like a numbers person. But in reality, I was an artist at heart, and that's who I really am. And I think that was. Dying to get out, and when I did, I felt a lot lighter, lot freer, a lot more congruent, as you say, with the person who I am.

Mick Spiers: 10:08

I love it. Yeah, I love it Tony. So this, this metaphor of the mask, is beautiful. Now what I'm hearing so you were finding yourself incongruent. Now I'm hearing you observe other leaders that today the role of leader is played by and someone is playing a role they're not showing up as their authentic self. And I heard two elements of that role. One was almost a challenge to the identity that they'd built themselves up so almost challenging the story that they've told themselves in the head about themselves. There's something else there around did they have an understanding of what a leader should be, or were they just mimicking the behavior of people they've seen before them? Right? So I need to be angry today, because I'm the leader, and I should be angry at this rather than No. I just need to be myself. I just need to be myself. So how much do you think this kind of the role modeling of those that come before us, the expectations that we put on ourselves, going a leader, should be like this, instead of just being No, you are the leader be yourself.

Tony Martignetti: 11:18

Yeah, I just love how you got into this, and it's it really, you know, if you let's kind of paint the picture of where we're at right now is, is there's looking at the workplace as as theater, right? If you, if we're making this into a theatrical production, and if that's what we are doing, we're creating a scene and all that, then that's really not going to serve anyone, because it's all fake. What we need is, we need real. We need, you know, to bring in the people who are feeling like this is the person I am, not the role I'm playing. And ultimately, I feel like that's what, what was coming crumbling down in those moments that I was experiencing, is that there was too much inauthentic, inauthenticity in that room, sorry, and I was starting to see that through all of that, we needed to get real, and we needed to get connected with each other in a way that truly broke down All of those barriers. I think part of it comes from not just from a place of, oh, I want to be inefficient. I want to be someone else, or I need to be this certain way. It also comes from a pattern we get stuck into. Once you have this ideal of what you think a leader should look like, then you work your way into that, and then you play that role for so long that you get into that pattern of being that person.

Mick Spiers: 12:47

Absolutely, and then it starts becoming exhausting, because you're not yourself anymore. You're always you're second guessing yourself two moves in advance. You're going, Oh, if, if I'm the leader, I should be doing this. And the thing that really triggered me when you were talking about this, when you're talking about knowing all the answers, and if they've convinced themselves in the head that a leader should know all the answers, well, all of a sudden they're going to start pretending they have all the answers when they don't. And if they just took the time to step back and realize what their team might have the answers. They don't have to have all the answers. They could actually give themselves the license to let go a little bit, let go of that identity and be a real human being. How does that sit with you?

Tony Martignetti: 13:33

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's such amazing truth of that. You know, we hired people to work on our teams with very qualified people. But then what happens is a lot of these leaders who take the reins and say, Okay, well, you know, they're qualified, but they don't give them the opportunity to actually step up and do the work that they're meant for.

Mick Spiers: 13:54

Yeah, all right. Now let's, let's transition. We've already used the word a few times around this word connection. Let's transition to that. Now, the first thing I'm going to say to you, very hard to build an authentic connection. If people aren't showing up as authentic, right? Otherwise you're going to have, oh, yeah, this actor is connecting with this actor. But is it real? So what does a deep connection look like, Tony?

Tony Martignetti: 14:20

Yeah. And, you know, again, it comes down to this before I talk about what deep connection looks like, you know, I think you're hitting on the right point is the sense that a lot of places put a lot of theater around, you know, connection. They say, Oh, we're, you know, we're going to have a connection conversation, or we're going to connect people, or, you know, our team is so connected, but the reality is, it's only at the level of the superficial where they're just asking people, Hey, how are you doing that kind of thing? And it's really not getting to the deeper meaning of what it is that it means to be connected with an intentional sense. And so when I talk about deep connection, it's really getting to know first and. Most starting with the per each person, understanding themselves, you know, giving people the space and the opportunity to explore. You know, who is it that I am, that I bring to work and to my life in general? And that starts with an exploration. And I think oftentimes we have to say, What am I comfortable bringing to other people through conversations, and so I help people think about that through the context of really three C's. Connection is one of them. It's a big part of it, but curiosity and compassion. So when you connect with yourself, that means giving yourself the space to say, I'm in conversation with myself, and I want to be curious about who I really am. Ask myself about my journey. What is it that I you know? What were the moments that made me who I am, and then compassion about the things that you know maybe you're scared to share because there were dark moments, or there are moments that you're embarrassed about, but what are the things that have made you who you are. And then once you start to get get clear about your stories, about who it is you are, you know, your hobbies, your interests, your backstory, then you start to open the circle and and point it towards other people, and be curious and compassionate and connective to other people. And that allows us to get deeper into a dialog with other people. That allows us to see, you know what, what makes them who they are, not just their title. I mean, I often talk about, when we have conversations with people in a networking event, the first thing we're doing is trying to impress them. We talk about titles, we talk about, you know, where they work, and all that kind of stuff. But it's we could just slow things down instead and say, you know, hey, you know, tell me why, what brings you here? Like, what is, what's exciting about this event, or tell me, you know, where you're from, and that kind of stuff. Instead of getting into the titles from the get go.

Mick Spiers: 16:56

This is really powerful, Tony. And something I hadn't thought of like really starting with self. That if we want to build a deep connection with someone else and we want someone to share their real self, we better be ready to reveal our real self. So then using your three words around connection, connecting to yourself, being curious about yourself, who am I? Who am I really? And then having the compassion around that. Now I think the compassion was the key word for me, and let me explain why.

Tony Martignetti: 17:34

Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 17:34

If we, if we don't have self compassion, we're going to start judging ourselves before we share, and if we've prejudged ourselves, we're going to make an assumption that if I share this foible about myself, the real me, with another human being, they're going to judge me, because I'm already judging me.

Tony Martignetti: 17:56

Yeah, yeah.

Mick Spiers: 17:59

So then once we get through this, we've been through the curiosity, we've been the compassion, then we can be the one that starts we can be the one that is ready to share something open, that could be vulnerable, could be not sure what Tony's going to think if I share with him that I'm this person, but then That's going to open the license for the other person to reciprocate. And then you can flip the C's on the other way. You can connect. You can get curious about them, and you can be compassionate about who they are, as their real human that they are. How does that sit with you?

Tony Martignetti: 18:38

100%, I mean you're you're right on. You've really hit the right tone here, and this is exactly what we often miss, because we feel like we can't bring those things into the workplace and talk about some of these things, because we feel as though we've got to be on guard. We've got to protect ourselves in the workplace, especially because there's, you know, are people out? Do I have the trust with the people? Well, first of all, this is how you build trust. Is by, you know, being willing to go and share these elements, and especially more powerful when you are the when the leader is the one who's modeling the way, right? Because I've had people tell me, like, Well, that's all great, but what if there's, you know, the their senior management is not on board with this, well, okay, if the senior management's not on board, start with your team, your the people who you're, you know, you're in direct contact with, and, you know, create a ripple where you are. You know, start where you are and do what you can from whatever vantage point you have. Ultimately, if you can get the most senior people on the team on board, then what's going to happen is it'll create they'll see the value of having that connection and seeing how the when people start to build stronger bonds, what kind of impact that'll have. On the organization overall.

Mick Spiers: 20:03

What? What role do you think safety plays here? Right? So if I, if I've done that work and I've gone, I've connected to myself, I've been curious about myself, I've gotten past the compassion part, and I've gone, I've just accepted who I am and stopped pre judging myself. How safe do I need to feel before I go, You know what team?

Tony Martignetti: 20:24

Yeah, I mean, I think there's this is exactly. It's like another avenue along the safety path. It's about creating safety. Because when people know you, when they get to know you on a personal level, then they feel safer. It actually opens the door for safety. And I guess the starting point of all this is not really the starting point, but along the side, is that we got to make sure that if you, as you're opening up the people around you, if they're not coming back and reciprocating, then you know that you're in an unsafe environment or people aren't willing to trust and so then you have to be able to say, Okay, wait a minute. Maybe this is not the place for me. People aren't willing to go along with my thought of what I'd like to see the sharing look like, and that's a red flag. If you can't even have a conversation where people are willing to get to know you, or wanting to get to know you, then that means that there's no sense of safety, there's no sense of building trust. And that will would mean that no matter what you do, you're always going to be on high alert, and that's not a good environment to be in.

Mick Spiers: 21:35

All right, so we're going to test the waters, and if it's really not for us, we need to maybe make some different decisions there. Let's take a step back for a second. I think we've skipped over something, which is, why? Why do you think this deep compassion and sharing the authentic self is important?

Tony Martignetti: 22:36

Well, first and foremost, we spend a lot of time in the workplace, right, whether it be on virtual or, you know, or in person. And you know, why should we spend part of our lives holding back who we are? It's exhausting. And it's also, you know, to be honest with you, it's not not the right way to live. You know, for us to hold back who we are, you know, why not express ourselves, and people lose out by you not sharing yourself. You're not the only one who loses. They do too. And I'll give you an example. I'll use an example of some of the people who I've worked with, who have shared their, you know, their little things that they wanted to share with other people that have really opened the aperture for, you know, communication and connection. And then before I do share that, I'll also share that when people are well connected and there have a deep connection, you unlock a whole new level of innovation and progress as an organization, which is a bottom line indicator. You want to look at that bottom line of what's going to drive the organization? If you have people who are, you know, feeling like they're connected, that's going to drive the needle for the organization. So let's come back just for a moment to just explore what it looks like to share. So I had a data scientist who I've worked with for a number of years, she was amazing, really smart, deeply introspective, you know, kind of an introvert, but one of the things that she shared with me was that she was a violinist, and she practiced. She plays a violin all the time, whenever she's not at work, and she got really good. In fact, she was she played on a lot of concerts. And so I said to her, so, like, that's amazing. Like, what a cool thing. Have you ever thought about sharing that with people at work? And she said, No, I wouldn't do that. I'd be embarrassed, first of all, and second of all, you know, who cares? Why would they care? And I said, Well, what if you did, like, what if you just, you know, shared that with them. You know, it during one of the share sessions. Just help, you know, have them understand a bit more about you, because it sounds like you hold back a lot of that. And she did. She brought that into the into a conversation with a few people, and they were like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Can we come to one of your concerts? And before you know it, you know this, the whole company came and rallied around her and saw that. They wanted to challenge, they wanted to be at her concerts. They wanted to celebrate her, and they kind of saw her in full, and she felt more seen than ever. And she came out of a shell. She actually started to share more in meetings, and it just gave her a new lease in the way that she showed up in the in the room, and so that's what it did for her. And it also had this like uplift on other people around her who started to share their hobbies and interests and a little of their background. And it just changed the environment. So one person being very. Enough to share that change the dynamics of an entire team.

Mick Spiers: 25:43

I love it even, yeah, absolutely love it. And it needs to start somewhere that's beautiful. And I love how you connecting this to diversity of thought and safety and inclusion, that the person can then share all kinds of things so they've they've gotten through, I'm going to call it a hurdle. It may have been a mental block for her in one of two ways. Sounds like for her, she was like, Oh, who cares? Who? No one's going to care. Part of her brain may have we're psychoanalyzing someone I don't know. Part of her brain may have also feared judgment. What will they think of me if they know that I do this, right? So the fear of judgment or the fear of no one cares, this is a really important part of me. What if I share it and no one cares? It's, there's multiple fears in there or a vacuum. It's, it's one of those. But once you got over that first hurdle of, oh, no one thought differently of me. In fact, the opposite. They thought more of me because I shared this and and now they know something about me. That means at the next meeting, I can safely speak up and say, You know what boss, I don't think I agree with this course of action, I think we're missing something here.

Tony Martignetti: 26:56

Yes, yeah. And that's exactly what we need more of people sharing what's real for them. But it starts with that one brave moment of sharing a piece of them that they that they don't share, and it gives them the license, you know, almost the agency, that they need to be able to share, you know, widely, eventually.

Mick Spiers: 27:19

I think you've covered two incredible pillars of why this is important. First of all, it's exhausting to play the role of someone else every single day of your life, and to hide the true you, and to be prejudging yourself, like I said, worrying about what other people will think if you share this thing about you. And then second, the the floodgates, the floodgates, it'll open for the business in terms of other people will do the same. And then you'll have the psychological safety in the meeting for everyone to go. You know what? I don't agree with this. Or, Oh, this is a great idea. What about this, though, the unlocking of the co creation from that moment on. Really amazing Tony. Now this is easy for us to say, we're sitting on a podcast. People are going to be listening to this. They're going to be on the tram on the way to work. Or what do they do to listen to this podcast? And they're going to be excited and go, yeah, yeah. I think this Tony is onto something, but I don't know how to start, yeah, yeah. How do they start, Tony?

Tony Martignetti: 28:29

Well, the first thing is to is take a piece of paper, you know, a journal, or some, some way of just, you know, putting pen to paper and sharing your thoughts about, you know, who am I? What are the things that have made me who I am? And that's where the introspection part comes to mind. We are often scared to do that. So start with yourself. Sit down and just get to know what makes me who I am, and not just your title. You know, what are the stories that have made me win if you if it's easier for you, because oftentimes people see, you know their values as something that is, you know, usually something that's easy to access or come to what are the things that you value? Start with your values. So if you say, I have you know I value, and I'll share some examples. So let's just say you value adventure, okay? And adventure is the word that comes to mind. It's one of my values. How does it? How do you define it? What does it look like in where did it originate? What is the origin story of your value of adventure? And so that is the the starting point. And you can start to say, Oh yeah, that came to me when I was younger. I used to always love watching Indiana Jones movies. And I wish that was him. I wish I was like, you know, running from boulders like, you know, being chased by my evil henchmen or what have you. But it was always about the adventure and seeing what was around the corner and and then as I got older, I realized I really enjoyed going out on adventures during the day with my friends. We'd take our bikes, we'd go for days just figuring out what we could find as we went into the into the woods and all different places. And that stuck with me. And then as I got a little older, I would take adventures all around the world. I would travel to places like Europe and be all around the US, and those are the things that I really always found that I learned the most. So adventure is something that is meaningful to me. So I digress, but you get the point.

Mick Spiers: 30:34

All right. So starting with really introspection and. Thinking about, what is it that sparks me and and where did it come from? What's the next step? What's the next step?

Tony Martignetti: 30:47

Once you start to get that, you know, the those things going then what happens is you start to say, what are some things that I usually run away from sharing? You know, maybe some of the moments that you've been embarrassed by or that you have felt challenged by, you know, have you had any trauma in your past that you felt like, you know, I didn't want to go back to that, but, you know, just use an example of, you know, being laid off from a job, and it's very embarrassing, and usually can, it's like a challenge to identity. So you think about those moments, and you say yourself, yeah, you know, I think back to that, and I say, I'm glad I did that. I'm glad that happened, because I learned so much from it, and what I learned from it allowed me to become who I am now, and it wouldn't have if it didn't happen to me, then I couldn't have shifted into this new world that I'm in now. And so again, it's that sense of like looking back at the bad things or the things that happened to you and seeing how they opened up new doors, new opportunities, new ways for you to think about the world you know could have been that, you know your parents divorced, and it caused a lot of turmoil in your family, but at the end of the day, you also became close to your siblings, or you you know, you realize how fragile life is, and you start looking at things differently.

Mick Spiers: 32:10

What I'm loving about this one Tony said, the the sharing of, let's say, the darker side of our souls, the the part that we might be hiding because we, like I said, have prejudged ourselves, or we're worried about judgment from others. To me, that might be the key to relatability, because we're because we're all human beings, and human beings are flawed. Let's face it, we're flawed. Everyone has something now I don't care who you are. I don't care if you think you're perfect you're not. When someone walks around the office pretending to be perfect all day, that's not very relatable. And then I start myself, if I'm the third party on this occasion. I won't necessarily, I'll start forming views. I won't necessarily share things, and I'll start forming views. Are the boss will never understand this. So the one that you used laid off. If there's people in the office that are walking around worried about this quarter's performance, and, you know, we might have to lay a few people off. I wonder if I'm in line. I wonder if I'll have to let any of my team go. If they know that the boss has been there before, they might be ready to have that conversation. But if they think the boss is cold, is perfect and is a robot, they're not going to have that conversation. So sharing something like that all of a sudden, you're a relatable human being. To me, you're not just the boss.

Tony Martignetti: 33:51

Yeah, yes, it's exactly and that's what we're looking for, is to become relatable and and approachable in that regard, and that's what really changes the game. You know when, when people often say leadership is lonely, and it can be lonely, but part of the reason why it's lonely is because sometimes we do it to ourselves, because we put up a lot of guards and fences. But why? Why do we do that? We don't have to be that way, even if, if it means you are connecting with people outside of the doors that you have that you can you can feel as though I relate better with another CEO or another person at the same level. That's great, but make sure you're doing that in a way that is really authentic, not like keeping up the guard and saying, like, Oh, I'm fine. I'm just, you know, we're doing great, and then the next day, you're kind of going bankrupt and your marriage is falling apart and everything's, you know, going to crap. You know, you have to be able to share real who you are.

Mick Spiers: 35:01

I'm going to go on a small tangent for a second. Uh, Tony. The the thing of I'm wondering about here is whether the age of social media is also making this worse, right? So, and I, I'm not going to pick on Instagram, but it's the obvious one, right? So people start comparing their own life to someone else's curated version of their life on Instagram. So now I'm going to be less likely to share the dramas I had on the weekend with the kids because I saw I saw everyone else's Instagram feed with their kids a beautiful. School, and they had a beautiful day at the park. And aren't they perfect? Yeah, no one's family is perfect, but on Instagram, it looks damn perfect. People having beautiful, curated lives makes it more difficult for me to say, yeah, actually, you know what? School drop off this morning. Oh, my God, it was a nightmare. Makes it hard, because I'm worried that people are going to judge me because their life is perfect. I saw it on Instagram. How does that sit with you?

Tony Martignetti: 36:07

You're, you're right. I mean, I think this, it all that is absolutely related to this idea that, like we need to let go, let down all of those guards around. Well, first of all, knowing that nothing as quite as it seems on the internet or anywhere else for that matter. People walk around with these senses of like, superiority and like, Hey, look at me. I'm perfect. The reality is, everyone's going through some stuff, but some people hide it much better than others, and some, you know, even go the other direction and kind of over do it and, you know, brag and show all these, like, really, you know, amazing things that are just glossing over the fact that, on the inside they're dying. And I think that's unfortunate, because what happens is they think that that's going to make them popular, or people like them in the deep, you know, in other people's minds, it actually might have them either do one of two things. It'll either have them resent them, or it will have them resent themselves. And then we'll have them work even harder to try and be like them, which we don't want that we need to stop that, that culture of people feeling that they have to compete to be that perfect, perfect person. So we could just be more real with each other. Then what happens is we can start to be able to show up and do what's in our heart, what we want to create in the world, do it at the pace that we feel is natural, not try to overdo it. And and think things would be a little lot better, so that we just solved the answers to all the the world's problems right there but,

Mick Spiers: 37:46

Just in one go,

Tony Martignetti: 37:47

It's got easy.

Mick Spiers: 37:48

It's not easy but, but come back to we spoke before about comfort zone. If we don't step out of that comfort zone, we won't realize the gifts, that gift that is on the other side of sharing our authentic self. Yeah, really powerful. So if someone does have that limiting belief, they're still sitting here Tony and they're listening to us, and they go, Yeah, I want to do this, but something's still holding them back, so they know what to do. Now, you've we've shared why. We've shared how,

Tony Martignetti: 39:01

Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 39:01

But they've gotta walk into that office and they gotta take that first step. How do they get past what's holding them back?

Tony Martignetti: 39:09

Well, first and foremost, they have to get clear in their mind, of like, what is it that is the worst that's going to happen? I mean, I know they've heard that before, but what is the worst that could happen nothing that you do, I shouldn't say nothing, but most things that you would do are not going to be fatal. There. They are reversible. But just going to give you an example. So let's just say you decide that, you know, I want to try a different career path, and so I feel like I'd like to experiment with doing something different. And I'm not talking about leaving your job to go, you know, become an entrepreneur, because, you know, this challenging, but you know, just saying about a career pivot, you could do that. And you know, hey, if you didn't, if it turns out you don't really love that, it doesn't mean that you can't go back. People think they can't. People think that's a waste of time. But instead, what it shows is that you're willing to experiment, that you're willing to take risks, and that you're willing to also own it when you when things don't work out. And so I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned from trying things and them not working out. That's the entrepreneurial mindset, right there, is that people start businesses all time they fail, and then you, you know, brush yourself off and figure out, hey, what's next? So I think that is a real, a real part of this is to say, what's the worst that could happen? I might have to start again. Well, that's not too bad you're just, you're not starting again from scratch. You're starting again with with new knowledge and from a place of still having ton of experience behind your belt.

Mick Spiers: 40:50

Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, really interesting Tony, so there's, there's a few things playing in my mind. First of all, that fear, the fear of loss, and unfortunately, our brain has it. It fears loss much more than it agree, appreciates gain, right? So if you play out the scenario in your head, you may catastrophize the loss and miss the opportunity for gain, but to ask yourself the challenging. Questions, what's the worst that could happen? What's the probability that that will happen? Because it's usually a very small probability that that catastrophe that you've told yourself, first of all, it's not that bad. And secondly, the probability of it happening is lower than your brain has told you, because your brain is there to protect you, it's it's there to keep you safe, and all these kind of things. So that's why we fear loss so much more than we appreciate gain. So is it real, the story that the catastrophe you told yourself in the head, is it really going to happen, and what's the probability, and is it really that bad if it does happen? And then I'm not going to say reversible, because it's not necessarily reversible. Once it you can't change the past. Once it's done, it's done, but then once you're through that first hurdle, you've got new options.

Tony Martignetti: 42:08

Exactly.

Mick Spiers: 42:09

You got new options. It's not the end of the world. Just like you said, start over or turn left instead of right, keep going.

Tony Martignetti: 42:17

Exactly. And the one thing I'll just point out, and it's an intense it's really connected to what we just talked about is this idea of attachment to identity, which also has a challenge that challenges people to move out of their comfort zone. Who will I be if I'm not who I am now? And the beauty of all this is that, guess what? You can have multiple identities throughout your life. Like, one of the things that I've come to realize is, especially when I've had this amazing people on my podcast that I've interviewed, is that, like, you have an identity that you attack, that you attach to, that, you know, sometimes we throw it away and then it comes back. I'm an artist. I've been an artist since I was a kid, and I still am, even if I don't paint tomorrow, I'm still an artist. You know, if you're a dancer and someone who's danced all their lives and you lose your legs, you're still a dancer, because you know in your mind what it means to dance. And so when identity is something that you're so attached to, like, I'm a finance professional or I am a lawyer, and then all of a sudden you say, Well, what happens if I'm no longer a lawyer? Well, you're always going to be a lawyer at heart, because that's something that's part of. It's been part of your identity up to this point, but you have an opportunity to create a do to attach yourself to another identity as well. And you can always come back to the lawyer. It doesn't go away. It's like riding a bike. It's knowledge.

Mick Spiers: 43:52

Yeah.

Tony Martignetti: 43:52

Like, gained go back to.

Mick Spiers: 43:55

And it can't be taken away from you. I really like that. And the other thing that's coming to my mind is the so many times we ask the question, what if? And we ask the what if question in a negative contents, what about the what if in a positive context? So what if it doesn't What if it doesn't work? Or what if it does work? Exactly? Imagine the world then and and it can be additive. It doesn't have to be subtractive. I love this. Tony. This has been an amazing conversation. So deep connection comes from being relatable, being open, being vulnerable, sharing your the real self, the authenticity. It needs to start with something so so we now know why it's important. It's important for the person because it's exhausting not to be it's important for those around them, including businesses, because it unlocks this diversity, this openness, the safety for people to share ideas and CO create a new world. Absolutely love it. I love your three C's. So connection, curiosity, compassion, starts with yourself, including stop prejudging yourself before you share something intimate about yourself, or use that word, stop prejudging yourself and have a bit of self compassion before you do it. Then once you're ready to share yourself, you're then going to open up the license for others to share their real self with you and you start again connection, curiosity and compassion for the other person. This has been really powerful stuff. Tony, thank you so much for sharing these lessons with us today. I'd like to now take us to our Rapid Round, which are the last four questions that we ask all of our guests, what's the one thing you know today? Tony Martignetti, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Tony Martignetti: 45:49

I don't have to have all the answers that it's okay to play and continue to explore, and it'll be a long and exciting adventure if I keep on exploring

Mick Spiers: 46:01

Very powerful I love it. What's your favorite book?

Tony Martignetti: 46:06

My favorite book? I always share the same one, but I'm going to change it up because my I'm going to share two real quick. My very favorite book is The Art of Possibility, by Benjamin Zander and Roseman. Alexander, and it's a fantastic book, because he's they explore this idea of like, even in the darkest of moments, you know you can find possibilities and create these fantastic options for yourself, creating obstacles, turning obstacles into opportunities. And just love his style. I've actually met him in person. He's a wonderful person and then, but the book I really wanted to get into is the one that is more present day. Think again from Adam Grant. Adam Grant is like the person who, like I wish I could be right now, because he's just such a His thoughts are always so interesting. But think again, was such a brilliant book, because I think a lot of us get so stuck in our thinking. And you know, oftentimes where our stuckness is, because we want to be right. We want to have all the answers. But the reality is, keeping up in mind is the is the most powerful thing we can do.

Mick Spiers: 47:22

Oh, that's so that's so challenging Tony, because we do we want to be right, so to keep an open mind, sometimes we have to realize maybe we're wrong, and we invite new information into our brains. Yeah, very good. Love it. What's your favorite quote?

Tony Martignetti: 47:36

Let me share one thing about that, the connection between the two books. One of the things that Benjamin Zander says is that whenever someone screws up in his because he's a the head of an orchestra, he says, How fantastic now, when someone screws up because it's an opportunity to learn. And I think that actually is interesting, because when you think of Adam Grant's book, it's like, how fantastic I've been wrong. You know, we get a chance to learn again.

Mick Spiers: 47:59

Absolutely all right. What's your favorite quote?

Tony Martignetti: 48:03

My favorite quote, My favorite quote is Marcel Proust. It's the classic quote. The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.

Mick Spiers: 48:16

Yeah, powerful, yeah. I really love it. All right? And finally, Tony, there's going to be people that have listened to this, and they do want to develop these deep connections. They they've completely been enthralled by a conversation today, and they want to get into it. How do people find you, if they'd like to know more?

Tony Martignetti: 48:38

Well, the best place is to go to my website, which is ipurposepartners.com, and when you go there, you can find my books, my podcasts and whole bunch of other fun stuff. And the other place would be LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn, always sharing cool stuff. So come check me out.

Mick Spiers: 48:56

Brilliant Tony, and we'll share those links in the show notes as well make it easy for people to find it. Thank you so much for sharing your gift today, sharing the gift of the authentic Tony, sharing the gift of your time and sharing the gift of your wisdom and experience. Thank you.

Tony Martignetti: 49:13

Thank you.

Mick Spiers: 49:15

You've been listening to The Leadership Project in the next episode, I'm joined by Graham Wilson, the founder of Successfactory, we explore how traditional management styles are falling short and leaving us over managed and under LED. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you weekly live streams, curated videos and video podcasts to help you unlock your full potential as a leader and high performer. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo And my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do, take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.