195. The Nonlinear Path to Leadership with Kristina Fusella

💭 Ever considered how early jobs like waitressing could shape your path to senior leadership?

Join us as Kristina Fussella, Founder and CEO at Novo Nordisk, takes us through her fascinating career journey that defies the traditional linear path. From leveraging her engineering background in consulting to learning invaluable lessons from her time at IHOP, Kristina's experiences underscore the importance of meaningful work and recognition, especially for younger professionals. Her story challenges the misconception that climbing the corporate ladder quickly is the only measure of success.

Kristina emphasizes the significance of following your North Star and stepping out of comfort zones to find true passion. Listen as she discusses her diverse roles at Novo Nordisk, showcasing her transition from analytics to sales and how it helped her build a comprehensive skill set. Her journey is a testament to having a purpose-driven career, staying open to opportunities, and solving real patient problems rather than just selling products. Kristina's insights will inspire you to embrace discomfort and varied experiences as pathways to becoming a well-rounded leader.

The episode also dives into the nuances of executive apprenticeship and the multifaceted challenges of leadership transitions. Kristina’s tales from her role as Chief of Staff provide a unique look into the intricacies of decision-making and running a business. She talks about building trust within teams, maintaining resilience amid setbacks, and fostering a growth mindset.

Wrapping up with her reflections on self-compassion, curiosity, and meaningful development conversations, this episode offers a treasure trove of wisdom for aspiring leaders and anyone looking to build a fulfilling career.

🌐 Connect with Kristina:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinafusella/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kristinafusella/

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Chapters

• 0:01 Navigating a Nonlinear Career Path
• 8:16 Following Your North Star in Career
• 15:43 [Ad] Business & Society with Senthil Nathan
• 16:31 (Cont.) Following Your North Star in Career
• 20:36 Executive Apprenticeship
• 27:19 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 28:10 (Cont.) Executive Apprenticeship
• 32:57 Embracing Growth Mindset and Leadership Challenges
• 38:49 Building Trust and Leadership Transition
• 55:03 Power of Resilience and Success

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

What does it mean to have a non linear career? There are multiple paths you can take to have a rewarding career. You can become a deep expert in your field, or you can become a generalist who Tic Tacs across multiple roles, learning a broad set of skills and experiences along the way. In today's episode of The Leadership Project, we are joined by Kristina Fusella, who shares her real life story of a non linear career path that included the pivotal and formative role of being a Chief of Staff. There are lessons in this for all of us, including how to maximize career growth by stepping out of your comfort zone and the application of hands on learning. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Kristina Fusella. Kristina is a senior director at Novo Nordisk, but it's her journey today that we'll be talking about. She's come to that role now in senior management through a pivotal role called Chief of Staff. Chief of Staff is a role that's quite familiar in government circles and in military circles, but we don't always think about it in the commercial world. So Kristina is going to be sharing with us her journey of success and how the role of Chief of Staff has created the person that sits in front of us today. So I'm really excited to unpack this today. It's going to be a really curious conversation for me, for sure, and I know that there's going to be lessons in this for all of us. So Kristina, without any further ado, I'd love it if you did share a bit of that early career of yours as to what led you along this path through to the person that sits in front of me today.

Kristina Fusella: 1:44

Yeah, well. Thank you, Mick. It's a pleasure to be here, and I'm also deeply honored to be here with you today, and it's great to be able to speak to such a great audience as well. So what's led me to my career today? So I'm someone who's always embraced the non linear career path. I'm an engineer by training, I grew up with a lot of STEM courses. I first entered the business world in consulting, and then I became a fan of deep analytics. I was doing a lot of Excel work and visualization, but as I was doing that, what I actually really fell in love with was the business side and how we can impact people. And I would be remiss if I didn't speak about my first job out of college, which was actually during a big recession we had in the US, so it was actually quite hard to get a job, and I ended up doing waitressing at an IHOP at a Pancake House, and honestly, it's one of my favorite roles that I've ever had every and I've learned a lot about customer service, and in that world, you almost have like microcosms of many interactions with your your customers, and you learn how to pick up on their cues and how to listen to what they're not saying, maybe how to upsell certain things at the right moment, and then you get immediate feedback by how much tip they left you. So it was a fascinating little experiment. I enjoyed that a lot, and that's kind of what translated into the world consulting. When you think about deep customer understanding and you're trying to solve problems with them, and then that's what's led me here today. I'm someone who's always embraced fear. I've never let fear hold me back. I think if the reason why you're not willing to do something or take a leap is because you're afraid, then it's not a good enough reason. So I'm I'm always been that hand on my back that's just pushed myself off of whatever Cliff jumps into whatever deep ocean that's out there, and just believing that I can swim and it'll be okay. It's super uncomfortable. I don't know why I do it. Sometimes. I think I'm a bit masochistic in my career, in that sense, but it's allowed me to have a very well rounded career through many different commercial functions and learn a lot about business as more of a generalist. So that's a little bit about my journey. It's very non linear. It's a little bit of a jungle gym.

Mick Spiers: 4:04

I love this Kristina. I want to unpack a little bit of that. First of all, this word non linear, that's coming through loud and clear. Right now, I'm going to put an opinion out there that I want you to challenge. There are some people that believe that the next generation are meant to be clear, you're clearly the next generation of leaders coming through that they always want to be the CEO tomorrow, that they every advancement that they want to they want to go fast. They want to go from one job to the next job. And they want it to be an advancement. They want it to be a promotion. But that's not what nonlinear is. What does the word nonlinear mean to you?

Kristina Fusella: 4:43

Yeah, absolutely, I would say, as I reflect on the first 10 years of my career, I can understand and completely empathize with the wish for acceleration and that promotion and that pat on the back. I mean, that comes from conditioning when you're in school where you're. Graded on a very clear scale, and you know what grade you get, and then you know what awards you can get. So this level of achievement is really like tangible achievement. It's just conditioned. So when then you graduate from school and then you enter the workforce, what does that look like? And then it looks like promotions or ratings and and that's kind of why someone who's maybe earlier in their career, I can understand is hungry for that, along with a general desire to be challenged and a general desire to work on something that matters, and that's a very challenging piece. And I think what kind of comes out as an aside is this feeling of, oh, the younger generation, they just want to be like Mavericks. They just want to be CEOs. They just want to do awesome stuff all the time, be rewarded for it and be great. But really, what they're after, when you dive into it, is they want to work on purposeful work and meaningful work, and be challenged and then be recognized for some of the newer skills that they may bring to the table. Non linear for me, you know, I'm someone absolutely of that mindset, and I've learned, with maturity in my career that, you know, that CEO job, it's not as I think optically, it's always so appealing, and it like, wow, you have so much power, and it looks so cool. But with maturity, you understand that job actually is really a lot of responsibility, and it really stinks most of the time, and it's the reason why not many people want that job as they advance in their careers, because it's not very desirable of a job sometimes. So I think as you grow in your career, and having nonlinear experiences allow you to understand what exactly am I passionate about, what exactly is going to check the box for me and make me excited to wake up every morning to do the work that I have to do. Sometimes it's not about the title, and most of the times, it's not about the title, it's about the level of impact that you have. So what I would say is I can understand that impulse of wanting the reward, but really, when you dive into it, it's about understanding what exactly is, what's driving that, what exactly is a meaningful use of that person's time.

Mick Spiers: 7:09

Really powerful. I'm picking up three interesting things there, Kristina, one is about this societal expectations. And you spoke about the title, and some of part would be Ego, and I mean that in a positive way, sense of self, and to be proud of who you are, and to be able to might even be your parents and friends, to be able to say, Yeah, I got, got a promotion at work today, what whatever the case may be, right? So some of that societal expectation, I fully agree with you, the next generation, is very purpose driven, and that comes through loud and clear. They want to be able to come to work and know that they make an impact on the world. And the third one was we might have these career ambitions that look bright and shiny on the outside, but when you realize that career ambition and you land in a role, you realize just how challenging it can be, and be careful what you wish for. You might end up in a job that you thought was your dream job, only to find out that it's not Wine and Roses every single day. What I want to ask you about is on that second part, where we talk about wanting to do meaningful work. What does meaningful work look like to you?

Kristina Fusella: 8:24

To me, meaningful work and I it's been a journey for me to really understand what it looks like for me, and the non linear parts of piece of my career, I would say, has helped me realize exactly which parts of a job do I like doing what brings me energy and which parts I could say, Okay, no, that's not for me. It's for somebody else who really enjoys that. And I can kind of search for what is, what drives passion. And for me, it really comes down to solving, for solving the business problem of understanding what people need. And so in my world, in Novo Nordisk, it's about patient desires and patient needs. There's in the US, there's a very broken healthcare system, and as a pharmaceutical organization, especially at Novo Nordisk, where we are so purpose driven, we have a lot of latitude to actually, genuinely solve for patient problems, not sell product. It's not about selling products. It's not about selling a solution. It's not just about trying to make the most sales. It's about finding what exactly challenges our patients the most and truly understanding who they are, and in the journey of solving for that, our product belongs there somewhere, maybe maybe not for people, but it's about making a meaningful difference. And inside the pharmaceutical company, what I find is really rewarding to me, is we have the resources to really be able to spend a good amount of budget behind these resources, also bringing in very major stakeholders, between big insurance companies, between. Big, big government agencies to be able to triangulate and form coalitions around how do you solve for these big problems that will affect the livelihoods of a lot of people? And for me, trying to solve that, that's what drives my passion. That's what makes me want to wake up and go work and do what I do every day.

Mick Spiers: 10:20

Yeah. I love it, Kristina. So there's two powerful things there, which is always coming back to your purpose and your why, and being able to remind yourself of the why on a regular basis, and then from there, almost using first principles thinking of the problem solving that goes about that Well, if that's my why, well, how do I get to that? Why and how do I have that impact on the world? Come back to non linear again, the other thing you said before was about embracing fear, and there's going to be a lot of people that are interested with this concept. With that non linear career, what role has stepping out of your comfort zone played, and what advice do you have to audience members that might be holding themselves back from taking a leap that might be the very leap that they need to take?

Kristina Fusella: 11:11

Yeah, absolutely, in our current leadership development at Novo Nordisk, what's been more of a recent trend, but it's something that I've held to myself for many, many years beforehand, and as I kind of looked to design my career Early on, we look for people who are quote, unquote, enterprise leaders and enterprise leaders. It's kind of a new term for us, but it really means someone who has a broader perspective when they lead a team. And it's not about someone who solves for the optimization of my vertical, it's about someone who can look across and have this we over me mentality when they're solving for when they're making business decisions, and the way that they collaborate and partner across. So the nonlinear part, I have always known that I want to be a well rounded business leader, to me as I senior positions, and for me, knowing I have a very long runway, I have a lot of time to explore many different careers or many different jobs within the commercial ecosystem that ultimately will give me a very strong toolbox for when I become a leader, like a Chief Commercial Officer or something of that nature. And my job or my ambition has been, how do I make myself the most prepared for that job, as you know, as possible, if I could possibly make myself before I get there? And that's what's driven the nonlinear aspect, is always having a North Star in mind. And I would ask people to really think about what their North Star is, and always staying true to that, because then it's very clear what decisions you want to make for your next step and what those next couple of roles could look like. And even if something looks very nonlinear and very odd. So for example, for me, I went from an analytics role to being a sales rep. So I went from facing a computer all day to now out in the field, talking to customers trying to open doors, being yelled at by doctors left and right. You know, anyone who had a bad day in the office, like there was me and I came in, they would take it out on me, but trying to be that person on the ground who delivered the messages for on behalf of patients and on behalf of the new science that we were trying to share with the world. And that was a very scary leap, because those were very new competencies and new skills that I didn't have, that I had to build very quickly. So doing things like that, it may have looked a little bit odd if you think of just the one step that I took, but in my mind, I've always wanted to be a commercial leader. So having that sales experience is very critical, knowing exactly what it's like to be on the ground and dealing with the hardships that the people do. It's very important to me to have gotten that experience, and that's to me, what gave me the courage to make that leap, knowing that I had this bigger mission in my head, that I had to be a part of.

Mick Spiers: 14:16

This bigger mission, and this North Star keeps coming through. It's really interesting, Kristina, that that was your guiding light. And I'm going to throw something to you to say that that doesn't you said almost craft your career or plan your career. Doesn't mean that you're going to plan every single step, but you've got a North Star that you're heading towards, and then what I'm seeing in front of me is someone that was open to opportunities as they come about, and then you could assess those opportunities on a case by case basis. And I'm going to come back to that in two seconds for a new question. Also want to play back to you this thought of enterprise leader. I like that term. At The Leadership Project, we talk about leadership in three dimensions, leading cell. For leading others and leading the business, and the ability to lead the business. To me, the word empathy now starts coming in, because I now have an understanding of all of the different levers of how the business comes together, whether it's data or sales, in your case, and I'll share a little bit about my own career a little bit later, you're going to hear some similarities. Tell me about your decision criteria now. So now think about Kristina a few years back. You've got that North Star, and new opportunities are being presented to you. Hey, Kristina, how about sales? Why don't you do sales for a while? How do you, Kristina, make that decision as to whether this is the right stepping stone for you in that non linear path?

Kristina Fusella: 16:23

It's a great question. I think the beauty about having a North Star, it gives you a lot of flexibility in which opportunities therefore you're willing to be open to and think about so the sales piece, I mean, that was something that was really jarring when someone suggested it to me. It was first of all terrifying at first, but when I thought about what is the future believer that I want to become, and I know that is a critical step, so that's what actually you know doing that once is actually allowed me and opened doors to other people in other departments taking a chance on me to go into other different roles that were wildly different than what my profile would suggest that I could be capable of. And since that sales role, I've since went into the space of market access, which is a very different part of the pharmaceutical value chain, and that's also those types of moves, is what allowed me to be really great chief of staff to one of our senior executives, because at that level you have already you are operating at an enterprise view. And to be a really great Chief of Staff, I believe you not only need to have a decent amount of expertise and the vertical that you're supporting, but also the relationships across the different parts of the organization that will allow you to that job more effectively.

Mick Spiers: 17:48

Really powerful, Kristina. Now I want to share very quickly, briefly, my own career, because it has some some similarities. So my long term background was in defense aerospace, so in aerospace engineering, and then through my career, I'll do it as a fast track. I've been a Aircraft Maintenance Engineer on the tools. I've been a trade supervisor, I've been a trade instructor, I've been a project manager, I've been a quality manager, I've been head of sales and marketing for a business. I've done so many different roles, project director. I've been the head of product development, I've been the head of innovation. I've been across all of these different departments, always staying in each role for between three to five years so that I could do something that mattered, so I could have an impact before I went on to the next thing. But that's exactly what I did. I used to plan out my career and go, I want to be this by the time I'm 30, I want to be that by the time I'm 40, when I let go of that and I just followed opportunities and followed my nose and went and said, yes, when these opportunities come up, I believe that has made me the well rounded executive that I am today, which is the word that you used before, well rounded. So let's get to this chief of staff role. Now, what did you learn in that role?

Kristina Fusella: 19:07

That's a great question. And before I get into that, are you saying that I'm literally speaking with a rocket scientist at this moment.

Mick Spiers: 19:15

Not quite, but yeah.

Kristina Fusella: 19:17

That's very cool, Mick. The chief of staff role, what didn't I learn in that role? Honestly, and I think for anyone who's aspiring to be a senior executive, I would recommend that role highly to anybody, because there's no other role where you will truly understand what it takes to be a senior level executive, it is a heavy, heavy responsibility. So many decisions come across an executive's plate between managing people, being an inspiring and motivating person, dealing with any sort of HR issue that comes up on the team, to making business decisions that will impact hundreds of 1000s of employees, and, you know, having impact the revenue in very significant ways, in a long term way. So the impact of that person and the responsibility that they carry is very heavy, and that was not lost on me, and I think that's part of why I wanted to take the role was knowing that I want to be at that level at some point, I wanted to have an understanding of what was I what am I missing from my toolbox? Still? Where do I still need to develop and learn as I prepare myself for greater responsibilities and the role that I'm in now in my latest jump into the deep, blue ocean. Of something I've never done before. I lead the capabilities organization in Novo Nordisk, and that is a learning and development it's a training function. So I'm not a trainer. I have people on my team who absolutely are so passionate about training and instructional design, I think it's really great. That's not who I am. I'm someone who's an expert at leading teams at this point and but the cool thing I actually learned about a training is that the most when you look at history, the most effective training and teaching methodology is not actually like classroom learning. It's apprenticeship. It's hands on learning. And I was thinking about this, you know, being a Chief of Staff is basically like being an apprentice to that senior leader, because you're with them, you're watching them, handle and lead through many different situations, you know, difficult or easy. And I truly believe that's the role that's really accelerated my acumen in becoming a leader, and it's allowed me to jump into this role, even though I have no subject matter expertise, but what I can bring to the table is my ability to lead this team. I lead a team of leaders, so I have several layers on my team and to inspire and motivate the organization and to know exactly how do I connect what they do to the bigger purpose at Novo Nordisk that they find meaning in their jobs and they're able to show up every day really excited to be here.

Mick Spiers: 22:15

So there's a few really critical things I'm picking up there Kristina around this broad spectrum. So this chief of staff then being an understudy to the chief to an executive. And then for you to have that realization, you mentioned when you're talking, you said, Oh, today it might be a HR problem. Tomorrow, it might be a technical problem. Day after that might be a customer service problem, you're starting to understand all of the different levers, whether it might be a revenue problem, a profit problem, a cash problem, a people problem, the problems are different on each day. And there's so many different levers in a business, and you get to the point where you can't be just a deep expert in one field anymore. You need to be able to understand multiple fields. And that's what I'm seeing in front of me, someone that's been on that now in learning and development, and another pivot, and I'll come back to some of those pivots a little bit later. But I love this term apprentice. Tell me about how you made the most of that opportunity where you are the apprentice to I'm going to put it out there. You didn't use these words, but an executive that you admire, a leader that you admire. How did you take the most of the opportunity to learn from that person?

Kristina Fusella: 23:33

Yeah, absolutely. I think part of it was being very upfront with my leader at the time that, you know, having my own personal development conversations with her. And I said to her, you know what's one thing that's very valuable for me in this role is to watch you lead through these situations and learn from you. How do you how do you do leadership? So that kind of signaled to her, it's every time that she would be in the meeting that I would be with her, or, you know, she have a conversation on our talent strategy, or, you know, she would debrief with me and tell me about her thought process of why she made the decisions that she she made as a Chief of Staff. You're also a confidant. You know, you're also a sparring partner as well. So when it came to situations where she had to coach her own leaders. You know, my peers, who are all senior leaders, leading their own big functions, we would actually talk through it, and she would kind of run me through her thought process and the way that she's going to bring up this subject, the way that she's going to coach this person, and what is she going to look for going forward. So she'd actually just almost do a stream of consciousness. Of here are all my thoughts, but I'm going to share them with you, because I know you have this interest in learning from me about how I think about leading my team, and that was extremely valuable. And then beyond that, I mean, that's part of the My role is to be that kind of sparring partner, cough, not to her anyway, that's adding business value. And the other slice of Chief of Staff is obviously the operational aspects of it, of running, running the chief of staff office, and running her shop. So I think being upfront with that desire for personal development, it was very fruitful. And it's, it's something that isn't just totally one sided. Because for her, what she's looking for is someone who's a confidant who can spar with her and challenge her on ideas as well. Because at that level, not many people are willing to challenge you anymore. And for this role, one of my core remits was I was the one that had to bring up those challenging things.

Mick Spiers: 25:39

I'm going to share a few things back to you there. Kristina, it's really interesting. First of all, you're learning by doing, and you're learning through curiosity. So that ability for you to have those conversations where you could ask that question, tell me about that decision. Why that decision? I think that's a powerful way to learn. Follow the curiosity, ask better questions, and then you're learning by doing. I'm going to say that the executive would have got great benefit from this as well, on two levels. The first one is they don't always have someone else to talk to. It can be very lonely when you get to the executive leadership role and you don't always have people around you that are going to challenge your decision, for example. So having that someone that you can have those conversations with, even just verbalizing it and rationalizing the decision to someone else, can help you process it. Instead of just having a an inner chatter inside your own mind, you're talking to another human being. It becomes very real when you talk about it, you can even challenge your own thinking along the way. And then to give you Kristina the license to Hey, don't be afraid to challenge me. If I say something that doesn't make any sense to you, you're going to look at it from a different perspective, compared to me. This is where the diversity of thought comes in. So I'm going to say it's a mutually beneficial relationship here, it's not one way. You learnt a lot, but I'm going to say that the executive in question also learnt a lot from the process. How does that sit with you?

Kristina Fusella: 27:51

Oh, absolutely. And also, we just have a very great friendship now, even now that I've moved on, but you have to remember these they're people too, like they're real life people dealing with real life problems. And as that level, not only are there not many people that are willing to challenge and speak up directly, but also not many people have their backs, so really creating kind of that safe relationship where we have very open conversations, and I'll give you actually just reminded me of a silly example of one time we had a bit of a fun team building event, and there was this game, so two player game, Connect Four. I don't know if that exists anywhere else in the world, but we were playing this game of giant Connect Four, and it was her versus me, and I had won the game, and as soon as I won the game, other people looked at me like, Oh my God, you have the courage to win at this game? Like, what are you talking about if I don't have the psychological safety to win at like, try my best and actually win at the game of Connect Four, how is she going to ever trust me that I'm telling her the truth around anything, and spar with her on any real business topic? So it was very fruitful relationship, I hope, for both of us, but for me, I definitely felt, you know, it's not with anybody that you would really talk about these things with.

Mick Spiers: 29:17

That connect forward is a really interesting metaphor and just the reaction of other people around you, that is some of the mindset that leads people not to take bad news to the boss, or whatever the case might be. And that's not what the boss wants at all. If you do have someone is like that, just get out of there, by the way. Like if there's an executive that doesn't want to be challenged, that's not the company for you. Just move on. I come from an older generation, I guess, Kristina, but the example I would give to you is companies where the CEO was always somehow the best golfer in the in the company, and never gotten beaten by, yeah, never gotten beaten by anyone else at golf. And it's like, well, that's not what we want in business. Honestly, it's not what we want. We want people to challenge our thinking and to tell us, hey, I'm not sure about this. Can we have a chat about it? Because it makes for richer decision making when you collect all perspectives, and if you're not collecting all perspectives, you're going to make a short sighted decision so and well done on winning Connect Four as well, by the way. All right, now, next thing I want to unpack is what I'm picking up from you, Kristina, is both a learning mindset and a growth mindset. So let's start with the learning mindset, even all the way back to your IHOP example of what you were learning about customer service, what you're learning about what the customer wasn't saying was just as powerful as what they were saying that your ability to pick up, to read the room, to read the emotional expression in the room, etc, etc, you learn something even from waiting tables, right? What I want to understand is in each step of your career, not to unpack every lesson. But how did you embrace that learning mindset of, what am I learning here? What am I learning here? What am I learning here?

Kristina Fusella: 31:03

Absolutely, I think it's exactly what you said. It's a mindset you can go into any job and just say, I hate this job, and this is such a slog and I don't want to be here. Or you can say, you know what's different about this job that's going to bring. In some type of learning that I could take from here, and it will enrich my life for the rest of my life. And that's just the mindset, and it's something that you either do or you could choose not to do. So for every single role that I've had, they've all, you know, funnily enough, I didn't plan it this way, but when I look back retrospectively, they all build on each other, and that was the reason, how I became this person with such a diverse skill set. This someone called me the Swiss Army knife of Novo Nordisk and like, that's interesting, because it's true, and that's naturally because of my voices in this mindset I've had, I've learned about so many different parts of the commercial value chain. That's what makes me that's what made me able to become a chief of staff and operate at that level, because I had so much purview already of understanding of how the business works. So I think it is truly a mindset, and it starts there, and it starts with even if you're in a role where, honestly, I thought waiting tables, truly, it's still one of my favorite jobs I've ever had, because it was so much fun. And I love food, and I got to learn a lot about food. But you think about, what is it that I'm learning here? And if you dedicate yourself to not just like trying to pass the time, and let's pass this time as fast as possible so I can stop working while I'm here. I'm here anyway. I have to be here because I need to earn a living. What can I learn here? And what's going to what can I extract from this job that brings value to me, besides, you know, the salary that I need to take home?

Mick Spiers: 32:55

Yeah, nice, nice work. Kristina, now that the other part of it, then, is the growth mindset. Now, what I'm talking about here is you've backed yourself each time as you're going into a new role, even your current role in L D. You said that you're not an L D professional, but you still dive into the deep end. How do you back yourself with a growth mindset to go, Well, I don't know how to do this, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna back myself to learn how to do it.

Kristina Fusella: 33:21

Yeah, it's really hard. And this is the one I think that's very challenging, because this is where a lot of people would stop at this line. It's the line of fear, and it's it's really hard sometimes, and at this point, I've done this type of LEAP, and this is my fifth time I have an understanding now of I can expect, okay, the first week is going to be, you know, complete gibberish to me, and the first 90 days probably going to be very uncomfortable, because you're learning, and everything's a foreign language, and there's just so much to learn. And because jumping into this completely new space, you give yourself the grace that know that your learning curves can be pretty steep. So I think a lot of this comes back to also being kind to yourself. I know for me, I'm someone who has very high expectations of myself. So I think that if I'm doing anything less than fully understanding exactly what this job is, within two weeks of the job, then I'm failing. And really it's to stop that mental pathway to say, like, no, that's very unrealistic, and that's not what my boss thinks. That's not what anyone thinks. And I know I add value in a very different way, while giving yourself the grace to know that you are there and you're going to be learning for the first couple of months, and it's going to feel uncomfortable, but the important part is to lean into that discomfort and to know that when you are uncomfortable, that's actually when you probably are growing the most, and when you are comfortable, that's the time to really question, What am I doing here? Am I Am I growing? Am I learning anything new? So to me, that's when I say, lean into the fear.

Mick Spiers: 35:04

Nice one, Kristina, and great things happen just the other side of our comfort zone. That's where the true growth happens. So well done on your success in doing this. All said love what you said about preparing and knowing that it's going to take time and then having the self compassion to give yourself time and space to grow into that new position. Don't expect to be the expert in two weeks. It's not going to happen. That leads me to a curious conversation, and you can use your existing role potentially for this one as a generalist. You're going to find yourself in positions where you're the leader of people that are specialists, and they might be experts. So you're heading up a team of L D professionals. Now I'm going to hazard a guess. We didn't discuss this before the show, but you might have L and D people in there that have been in L D for 2020, years. And now here comes Kristina. She used to be a chief of staff, and now she's our boss. How do you handle the dynamic of leading people, where you're a generalist but they are a I shaped specialist?

Kristina Fusella: 36:09

That's a great question, because there's a couple of dynamics there too. You know, part of it is, then you ask, if you really get in your head, you're like, why am I leading this team? Yeah, and then you don't want to get a point where you think you want to make sure that your people still respect you as their leader, even though you have no idea what anything in L D is. So there's a couple of different layers there. One piece around it is what absolutely must come as a leader. First is the build trust with the team. That has to happen as soon as you land and you keep doing that for the first, you know, three months, six months, for as long as it takes. And that is critically important for any sort of leadership role, even if you're leading the team where you are already the expert, but especially if you're leading a team where you're not the expert, because they have to trust you. And that, I think, is the first critical important step, is to really nail the interpersonal relationship and come in with a mind for me, of learning and genuine curiosity and knowing that you're not the expert on this, but that's okay, because they are the experts on this, so you can learn from them. But then coming in as a generalist, the role that I play within the team is more around the strategy and connecting what they do with this, with the vision of the organization. And for me, this was actually really exciting time to join this organization, the capabilities organization, because having come from a chief of staff role at that senior executive level, I was very close with Novo Nordisk transformation. We have this very bold ambition. Within the next six years, we're going to be entering many different new therapeutic areas. Now, NOVA is a company that's been in the space of diabetes for 100 years, and very recently, did we move into? Maybe in the last 30 years, we moved into the space of hemophilia, growth disorders, that's rare disease. And then very recently, we moved into the space obesity, but we were pretty much a diabetes organization forever, but in just another couple of years, we are going to move into almost 10 different therapy areas. That is a huge transformation. And for me, coming in to lead this team, I know they find satisfaction in L and D design, and what they do in the L and D space is super cool in their projects. But my goal is to for them to remember that their purpose is that they are the team who is responsible for readying the rest of the organization for that huge transformation that this company is going to make. And that is a very worthy and exciting and daunting task for this group. And for me, it's about painting that picture very clearly, setting that vision, setting my expectations around how they will approach this and setting that strategy, and that's the kind of the niche that I play, and that adds value to this team.

Mick Spiers: 39:08

Love it. So Kristina, I'm hearing three really important things there. The starting with trust that's so key, like the WHO ARE YOU? Who am I? Why are we here to understand why we're in it together, the trust building is going to be really powerful. Then I'm hearing that an acknowledgement that you don't have to have all the answers because you're not an expert in that field, but you don't have to because you've got experts in your team that know how to do that. And then the third is the confidence to know what you're bringing to the table. Where's your value add, so you know what they can do, but you're bringing something different to the table. So in your case, you're bringing to the table the transformation skills, the understanding of what the business is trying to achieve, and then you're drawing out that deep expertise of your learning and development team to make sure that you can channel the team for optimal results for them, for the business, for you. So it becomes a win, win. How does that sit with you? This kind of three stage?

Kristina Fusella: 40:11

No, that's absolutely spot on, because this way you're complimentary to the team. And you know, I heard this when I observe leaders. So actually, I will say that I've been at Novo Nordisk for nine years. I've actually had nine different managers in those nine years, some by intentionally me switching roles, but in others where there was just a lot of turnover in the managerial position. But either way, I've seen like The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, and I've seen what happens when they're really bad managers and what they do, and what really great managers do. And usually what catches people off guard is when they're in a role, like, for example, the one that I'm in, and it might be quite uncomfortable, and there's a sense of needing to prove something, and having this like bias for action, and this bias for seeing like, feeling like or seeming like, You are the one that knows what's going on and giving out too many orders early on. And I think that's a very human like natural tendency of grabbing for some level of security when you. Feel so uncomfortable, and you have to really fight that urge. And the best leaders that I've seen come into this organization, and they do nothing but listen for three to six months, and that is such a it's not the natural reaction that you would have, but it's the one that works really well. And building that trust starts from making people feel like you've really heard them.

Mick Spiers: 41:43

It is going to be a battle, Kristina, because you said this before, where you're giving yourself a bit of self compassion, the thought that I need to do something. I need to prove myself. The team may not be understanding why I'm the new leader of the team, so I have to prove myself. But the opposite is actually what is going to work. Everyone in the workplace wants to feel seen, they want to feel heard, they want to feel like they matter. So when you come into that new role, if you start making decisions, they're not going to feel seen, they're not going to feel heard, they're not going to feel like they matter if you go in them in there and give them a good damn listening to they might take a step back because they may not have been listened to by their previous manager. Oh, Kristina actually cares. She actually cares what I think. Oh, this is good. So if we can hold that urge to want to prove myself straight away, and to realize that it's going to be counterproductive, and the best thing you can do is to listen. That's the best advice you can give someone that's in a position that you have taken in the past Kristina, absolutely.

Kristina Fusella: 42:54

And so understand also that if you do that, and if you look like you're not doing anything, or if you have the feeling that you're not doing anything for three to six months, know that that doesn't equate to you look like a bad leader. And I think naturally in people's mind, it might say like, oh gosh, I don't feel too great right now. Of my leadership skills, especially if you're a newer leader. But it's important to know that doing that actually equals good leadership. It doesn't equal bad leadership.

Mick Spiers: 43:22

Yeah, all right, brilliant. Now I'd like to bring this start to a crescendo. Now, I want to start with a question that, if someone is listening to the show and they're similar to you, but a few years ago, Kristina and they're at this position of there might be an opportunity to take an apprenticeship or a Chief of Staff type role. What advice would you give them if they were just starting out now?

Kristina Fusella: 43:48

If they were starting out earlier in their career at this point?

Mick Spiers: 43:52

Yeah, earlier in their career. But they're at that kind of fork in the road where there might be an opportunity to step into a almost type of a generalist type approach.

Kristina Fusella: 44:02

Yeah, especifically for the chief of staff role, I think what would have been really great advice that I would have loved to have is understanding that it's actually a very different type of job. And you know, I'll explain that in the roles that you might have typically have in literally, I think any other role, whether you're an individual contributor or a team leader, you're kind of you're given the remit, usually, and you're given a certain level of autonomy, hopefully, to accomplish something. And for me, that was definitely the case where I knew what tasks I need to get done. I might have had to talk to my boss like every other week to make sure that I'm on track, but I was, you know, responsible for driving whatever my projects were forward in the Chief of Staff job. What was very jarring to me is I went from talking to my manager every other week to every single day. And that felt very wrong in the beginning. You know, I felt like one of the reasons why, or one of the hallmarks of a successful employee, is someone who can be autonomous, and someone who you can trust to get things done, even and you don't have to micromanage to suddenly feeling like, Am I doing something wrong? Because I have to talk to my boss every single day. So a Chief of Staff job, you are that close because you are essentially your support person to that to that executive, know that it is a very different type of job. So the way that you operate, you almost have zero you have autonomy, but you have no individual remit. Almost your goals are that person's goals. Your goals are the goals of that department that they're running, and you have to and to be really great at the job, you fully align yourself to that. So I felt like one of the challenges that I had in that role is I lost a little bit of individuality what I felt but to me, you have to be okay with that for the time that you're in that job, knowing that that job is not forever, but you have to be okay with that, because that's what's going to make you successful, because you have to truly be aligned with that executive and the mission of that organization.

Mick Spiers: 46:12

Yeah, I really love that. And this, you have to be okay with that. It's like a season you go, Okay, this is a season of my life. Life Where I'm going to be joined at the hit with another human being, and I have to be okay with that, and I'm going to learn a lot from this, and it's going to be worth it. That's really good. All right, I love it. Christine, this has been a really interesting conversation. I'd like to land the plane now and take us to our final four questions. These are the same four questions we ask all of I guess. So, what's the one thing you know now, Kristina Fusella, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Kristina Fusella: 46:47

Oh, that's a really great one, Mick. I think one thing that I wish I would have understood, I was given this feedback or this advice a lot, and it was this advice about being more patient. I was definitely that young, 27, 20 something year old, who wanted to get the promotion and move really quickly. But there's value in spending intentional time perfecting whatever you're doing and learning from that. So there's this quote that I don't have an exact quote around, but I read this book by Robert Kiyosaki, and it's about financial advice and everything, but he has this concept of you can accomplish a lot more than you think in five years. But five years, when you think about that, it's actually won't feel like that long. So I say that to reflect in my career, when I think about how impatient I was early on, and then if I jump forward from the five years between, I would say 23 and 28 so much happened, and so much was learned, and I was able to advance faster than I thought. I was even thinking that I could, and it didn't feel like that long. And then I honestly, I think it's something where at some point I wish things would slow down a little bit more. So I would probably reiterate the adage of, I like the concept of the five years when you make a plan and you think about, gosh, I have this huge ambition, and I don't know where to start. You think about, what do you want to be in five years? Because it's actually you can accomplish a lot more than you think, and it won't feel like that much time.

Mick Spiers: 48:26

Yeah, our daily progress could get very frustrating, but then when we look back and go, Well, look how far we've come in five years, and then you project forward, imagine what we can achieve in five years. But on the day, it feels very frustrating, because you want to go faster, fully with you Kristina, all right, what's your favorite book?

Kristina Fusella: 48:44

I've really enjoyed the book, lessons of history by Durant. It's an anthropological book. I would say it's about human behavior, a lot of really interesting cases, as the title suggests, that you can learn from history. Human behavior is so fascinating to me. And it goes back to my love of leadership and kind of the psychology of people human behavior. It really does repeat itself. It's very interesting throughout the many eons of time, how you could see different stories and things play out exactly as it would again. So I find that fascinating from from that same point.

Mick Spiers: 49:20

Yeah, I love it. All right, what's your favorite quote?

Kristina Fusella: 49:23

My favorite quote is actually from Rocky, and it's the one where he goes, you know, ain't nothing's gonna hit you as hard as life is something love to that effect. But it's not about how hard you get hit. It's about, you know, how many times can you get hit but still keep getting back up. So it was a really inspirational movie. I love that movie. I think what he says in that quote, it's really about resilience, and, you know, not getting hit once, and you if you hit a setback, not having that defeatist mentality. It goes back to the mindset around I could pick myself back up and keep going at it. People who can do that really well. I find there with people who are most successful.

Mick Spiers: 50:04

It doesn't matter if you get knocked down 16 times, as long as you get up 17 times, right? That's it. Yeah. Very good. Love it. And finally, Kristina, people are going to be quite fascinated by your own life story, and they might have some questions of their own. How do people find you, if they'd like to know more about you?

Kristina Fusella: 50:21

Sure anyone can find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect with anybody and have a conversation with anybody there, so hopefully you can find me on my LinkedIn profile.

Mick Spiers: 50:30

All right, brilliant. We'll put the link in the show notes as well, Kristina, help people find it. Kristina Fusella, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom and your experience with us today, it's been a wonderful conversation. I feel richer for having the conversation, and I'm sure the audience would as well. Thank you.

Kristina Fusella: 50:47

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

Mick Spiers: 50:50

You've been listening to The Leadership Project. In the next episode, it will be a solo cast where I'll be sharing my reflections on this amazing interview with Kristina Fusella, including sharing my own nonlinear career path and how it has set me up for success. If you are finding value in our content, it would be greatly appreciated if you could leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast or your preferred podcast service, and you can subscribe to the. Leadership Project, YouTube channel where we share weekly video podcasts, weekly videos and weekly live stream shows. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP, Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.