281. The Multiplier Effect: Cultivating Leaders Who Create Leaders with Scott Burgmeyer

What if leadership isn’t just about driving results today, but building tomorrow’s leaders? Scott Burgmeyer, co-founder of the BecomeMore Group, introduces a simple equation: Performance = Potential – Interference. Instead of adding more strategies or tools, great leaders create breakthroughs by removing barriers — policies, processes, or even self-doubt — unlocking exponential growth.

He emphasizes strategic thinking as a neglected but vital skill. In today’s reactive culture, leaders must carve out time to reflect, starting with 10 minutes a week. By asking, What’s working? What’s not? What will I do differently? leaders can shift from busyness to clarity. Growth comes through the “squirm factor,” where discomfort fuels progress.

Scott believes true leaders don’t create followers, they create more leaders. By asking questions instead of always giving answers, they spark independence and transformation. His challenge: remove interferences, think deeply, embrace discomfort, and commit to developing leaders who develop leaders — because the future depends on it.

🌐 Connect with Scott:
• Website: https://www.becomemoregp.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/burgy/

📚 You can purchase Scott's book on Amazon:
• Think: The Road Less Traveled: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1944104399/
• Chief Optimization Officer: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1944104356/

Chapters

• 0:00 True Leadership: Building Tomorrow's Leaders
• 7:27 Scott's Journey From Chemistry to Leadership
• 13:22 Removing Interference: The Key to Performance
• 20:13 Strategic Thinking and the Squirm Factor
• 31:40 Creating Leaders Who Develop Other Leaders
• 38:19 Think: The Road Less Traveled
• 41:25 Rapid Round and Key Takeaways

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever wondered what the real job of a leader is? Is it to drive results, to execute strategy, or is it something much bigger? What if the true role of leadership is not just to lead today, but to build the leaders of tomorrow? In today's episode, I'm joined by Scott Burgmeyer, co founder of the become more group, Scott will share with us how organizations can create cultures where leaders don't just manage the business, but grow future leaders who think strategically take ownership and drive lasting impact. This is an inspiring and practical conversation about leadership culture and the responsibility we all have to develop others. You won't want to miss this. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Scott Burgmeyer. Scott is the Co Founder and Co CEO of an organization called the become more group, and he's also the author and co author of multiple books around optimization and Six Sigma, but that's not what our focus is going to be today. He also develops leaders, and what we're going to be focusing on is how you can create leaders that think strategically, that then build future leaders. So the role of leaders is not just to lead the business, it's also to build up future leaders, and that's what we're going to be focusing on today. So without any further ado, Scott, I'm dying to get into this. I'd love for you to say hello to the audience. Give us a little bit of a flavor of your background and what inspires you to do the work that you do today?

Scott Burgmeyer: 1:41

Yeah. Mick, I thank you for a great introduction. Appreciate the time to spend talking about leadership, one of my absolute favorite topics, and a topic we hear a lot about from organizations. Just a tiny bit about my background. My background is a little weird, because some people know I've worked in a lot, lot of industries, a lot of organizations. Been doing consulting for almost 25 years. And the highlights of kind of my background, I'm a chemist by training, but then did kind of the business thing. So I was a forensic chemist. I worked in manufacturing. I worked in food manufacturing, I worked in technology, and then was a college professor for a while in a medical school. So just a little kind of flavor of I've done many, many things, and now with the become more group, really focused on partnering with organizations who want to go from here to here, so that that's kind of the 32nd elevator speech about myself, or maybe I should talk about myself on the third person about Scott Burgmeyer. That that's, I'm sure, great for the listeners.

Mick Spiers: 2:50

All right, really good Scott. So tell me we like people with unusual backgrounds and different career paths. Was there a pivoting point that you know, went from chemistry through to human beings and leadership and thinking about organizations.

Scott Burgmeyer: 3:06

Yeah, I was always taught that when your boss or your boss's boss or your boss's boss's boss's boss suggest you should check this out, you just kind of say yes and figure it out along the way. So there was a point where I was really doing some operational things, some operational improvement, and our organization was struggling, kind of in the training space. So think large manufacturing facility training, you know, 1600 employees plus, on many different topics. And my boss said, Hey, why don't you take over training and do this process stuff that you're doing, you seem to kind of know what you're doing. People seem to like you and respect you. And that's really when it all started, when I realized, oh yeah, there is some combination between process and people, in business.

Mick Spiers: 3:57

There's definitely an intersection there between, you know, process, people and technology and the tools that we use to get our job done. But what I'm observing is a different thing, Scott, which is what I think you're trying to say, by the way, which is sometimes people see something in us that we don't necessarily see in ourselves. So we don't always read the label in the jar from inside the jar, but other people can see something, and I'm going to put it out there that your boss saw something in you and went, Well, this is a kind of unused skill set or untapped potential here. Let's see how Scott does at this. How does that sit with you?

Scott Burgmeyer: 4:35

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think you know he knew that if I didn't know, I'd figure it out, or I would get the right people around the table to help figure that out, and which is really how I met my business partner, because I hired her to come and do some training with us, 25 years ago, 20, almost 30 years ago, and she did some training with our organization and with my team and that's where it really started to connect. How do we build leaders? Who build other leaders and kind of go beyond what they do today?

Mick Spiers: 5:11

All right, so many years later, something's obviously clicked. So let me ask you this question, Scott, what brings you joy like when you're doing these programs that started in house, but now you do it for multiple organizations, including Google. You know some really big name organizations. When you go into an engagement and you do these programs, what brings you? Scott Burgmeyer, joy and fulfillment out of that?

Scott Burgmeyer: 5:36

Yeah, for me, it really is about the client is trying to accomplish something, whatever they're trying to accomplish. And for me, it's, I like the problem solving from a people perspective. So what is really preventing that individual or that team or that organization from becoming what they could potentially become? And many times, what I see is it's a little bit Mick, what you said earlier, you see something in others that they may not see in themselves. And how can you push them to reach their potential and reach even beyond a step that is always exciting to watch, kind of them be like, Oh, wow. You mean, if we did this and this and this, we would be able to accomplish that like I love that kind of whether you call it the aha moment or the the realization that, oh, now I see what's holding us back that is so satisfying to see.

Mick Spiers: 6:36

I'm going to reflect on some really powerful words that I'm hearing, Scott So, so people being the intersection of it all is clear. We touched on that a little bit before any process improvement. It's people that follow that process. Any tool improvement, it's people that use the tools and people become the intersection. That's not the key one I'm hearing. The language that you're using is very much akin to a an equation that we sometimes use on the show. It comes from Timothy Galway that says that performance is equal to potential. And you mentioned about seeing the potential in people. But here's the kicker, minus interference, performance is equal to potential minus interference, and multiple times in that set of words that you're using, Scott, I was hearing you saying, remove the thing that's holding them back. What was the thing that was the blocker that was preventing them from achieving their full potential? And how does that sit with you, particularly with your background in six sigma as well and optimization, how does this interference play into everything that you do?

Scott Burgmeyer: 7:45

When you think about interference, it's actually, I have not heard this equation before, so I'm chuckling about it, because the reality is, whether you're a business or a person, there's lots of interference. Sometimes it's yourself, like you can't even get out of your own way. I like, I've been there when I think early in my career, sometimes it is, oh, there's, there's a policy or a law that is blocking us from being able to do what we need to do. And I I need to try and work to figure out, how do I get over that? Sometimes it's a perception that, oh, others may see us or see me or see that person as someone, maybe I'm not, or I haven't put my best foot forward. Sometimes it is, oh, the equipment doesn't work how I want it to. So I love this concept of there are blockers or interference. And we typically talk about, if there's policy related things which are legal and rules you've put in place. There are people related things that we just may not see eye to eye. There are, you know, process or procedural kinds of things, and then there's just the inherent ups and downs of variation that just happen in process, and usually those interferences interconnect with each other, and sometimes there's a customer one, but we don't talk about that a lot because, you know, we're, are we picking the right customer? We can have a whole conversation around that. I think this makes a ton of sense to say, what are those interferences and how do I whittle them away?

Mick Spiers: 9:20

Yeah, that's it. How do I whittle them away, one at a time? Really, it can be and just, I was having a little chuckle, as you were saying, because I should share the rest of the story with you, they can be external interferences, but they can also be internal interferences. Now he's, he's the kicker that I didn't explain when I introduced the equation to you, Timothy Galway was a tennis coach. He wasn't a business person. He was a tennis coach, and the interference that he spoke about was usually inside the person's head, like if you start playing yourself inside your own brain, that's when you so not always are the other Inter. Is external. And when you started, you started talking about, you know, the inner part of this, what are my own thoughts and my own perceptions getting in my own way? Am I tripping over my own shoelaces inside my own brain? But even before I open my mouth, these are some of the elements associated with with galway's equation. How does that sit with you?

Scott Burgmeyer: 10:22

Yeah, know, I think that's great. I mean, you look at, especially if you're performing at a at a top level in sports, the mental game is a huge component of that. I actually think, in business and as a leader, the mental game is a huge, huge part of that. Am I thinking, or am I just acting or reacting to the stimulus around me, or am I doing purposeful things to move me forward, or our team forward, or that individual forward to reach their actual potential? I think the other thing is, there's, yeah, there's no real silver bullet. I think a lot of times people think, Oh, if I just fix this one thing, everything will be better. In my experience, it's usually these six or seven little things, and I get actually a bigger boost than I would if I would have done one.

Mick Spiers: 11:18

Yeah, really good, Scott, I like that. So, six or seven interferences, let's call it that for now. And before you know it, you've made a substantial change, and probably a compounding effect. Not not just one of them individually could have made the difference, but the compounding effect of the six or seven, all of a sudden, you've chipped away at those interferences, and you're moving forward. I think it's really powerful, Scott. All right, so here's your first takeaway. Everyone listening, if you're looking at your organization and listening to what Scott has been sharing with us, if you're looking at your organization and you're wondering how to move forward, think about what's holding you back first, and think about what you could chip away. It could be the six or seven things that Scott's talking about, process improvement and business optimization isn't always adding things. Quite often it's taking something away, taking something away that was preventing the people and the business from achieving their full potential. All right, Scott, let's segue from that to this topic that we teased at the start, which is creating leaders that think strategically and build future leaders. So let's go one at a time. What does it look like when a when a leader starts to think strategically?

Scott Burgmeyer: 12:35

Yeah, if we step back and we think we're going to create a drinking game here, every time we say the word, think we have to drink something, coffee, whatever your beverage of choices. But really, when you look at thinking strategically, first off, am I taking time to think? When we talk with clients, we talk with individuals, what we find is most people are not, and they're really saying, I don't take time to just think and really reflect about what is going on and what happens is, if I'm not thinking and I'm not then I'm for sure, not thinking strategically. And we would suggest that when you talk about thinking strategically, it's it's about what does success look like in the future, not what is it look like tomorrow or next week? What does it look like next month, next year, five years from now? And it should make you a little uncomfortable. I will tell you the first time we did strategic planning and kind of strategy, Tammy and myself together, she said, It's not possible. It's just not possible. I just, I don't think it's possible. And I looked at her and I said, it sounds like it's the perfect thing we should put on our strategy. If it makes you a little bit uncomfortable, not so uncomfortable that you're like, I'm gonna give up, but uncomfortable enough to make you squirm in your seat a little bit. It's really thinking about what's possible without holding yourself back.

Mick Spiers: 14:14

Yeah, I'm taking two things away from that, Scott, which is really interesting. First of all, the discipline of carving out time to think, and I'm picturing a lot of people listening to the show, and I've got to stick up my own hand and say, I would fall into this trap on a regular basis too. But are you on autopilot where you just showing up every day and you're just reacting to what's in front of you, whether it's the latest email, the latest crisis firefighting mode, are you just reacting to what's in front of you, or are you intentionally carving out time to think? And it makes me think of a guy called Patrick Tian who has this thing called a rhythm system. Scott and his rhythm system. System is think plan do. And I'm wondering how many times we get ourselves caught in the cycle of just do, do, do, do, do, and all we're doing is doing. And then the first discipline would be to go, well, take a step back. Are you planning, plan do? And then take an even further step back. Are you carving out time to think sink, plan, do. And the second takeaway was, what makes you uncomfortable? That was instantly powerful for me. We know that if you're ever going to grow as an individual or a business, the answer is just outside your comfort zone. If you keep on doing the same thing over and over again, we know that. We know how that equation works. You're just going to keep on getting the same result right. So let's break down. I'm going to go one at a time. What advice can you give to people who probably are stuck in the rat race of reactionary, doing, doing, doing? How can they intentionally carve out time for some thinking and some planning, not just doing.

Scott Burgmeyer: 16:04

Yeah, yeah. And some of this is really stepping back and like it sounds silly. Part of it is like, put it on your schedule. Most of us live by a schedule, and we have Outlook or whatever Google, you know, whatever your calendar method of choices. Just block that. Like I would suggest, if you can get 10 minutes a week to start, just do that. Then work to 10 minutes a day and see, can you go beyond that and then get out of what really happens when we're doing doing, doing is we're building habits, and we're working actually, if you look at kind of the brain science around this, you're doing lower operational thinking, which means you're in the lizard part of your brain, versus the higher cognition part of your brain. And one of the quickest ways to get out is to ask yourself a question. Okay? And we recommend three questions. We call them the growth questions, what's working, what's not working, what am I going to go do different? Yeah. And so those growth questions are really about getting yourself, because the brain kept once you put a question in front of you, or put a question in front of someone else, it changes the brain chemistry. It actually forces them to think.

Speaker: 17:26

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Mick Spiers: 18:10

Really good. So I like the reframing Absolutely. There's two bits here, two bits of homework team. The first one is, I want all of you to have a look at your schedule and listen to what Scott just said. Have a look at your schedule for this week. Let's assume that you work an eight to five day, something like that. Is it full of meetings? Is it full of Back to Back meetings where you don't actually have any time carved out to think, prepare and be intentional? And Scott's given you a baby step here, even if it starts with 10 minutes per week, then 10 minutes per day. And then if you get even braver, maybe even put five to 10 minutes in between each meeting, so that you can process the meeting that you just had and think about the meeting that you're about to have. So start intentionally building in some thinking time. Then this reframing, if you want to get into a different part of your brain instead of the reactionary part of your brain, this works, ask yourself a question. You've got no choice but to go into the prefrontal cortex, because that's where you're going to answer a question. So you're it could be any question, could be any question, but the fact that you've asked the question is going to change which part of the brain you're using. But I love the questions that you pick. Scott, which is what's working, what's not working? What should we try to do differently? These are really good questions that we should ask ourselves each day. So from there, then, Scott, the other part was the comfort zone. You said, let's look at what makes you uncomfortable. How do we do that without, I'm going to say launching into the fear of the unknown, etc. Where is that zone, just outside the comfort zone, and how do we get there? And how do we know that we're there?

Scott Burgmeyer: 19:59

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I call it the squirm factor. Okay, so I think we've likely, maybe you've had a leader. Maybe you've heard about someone who had a leader, or you right? You've seen it on TV or a movie, like someone gives that impossible goal, and you're just like, there's just no way. Okay, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about all right. If you say, You know what I'm gonna I'm just gonna use what we were talking about a moment ago, 10 minutes thinking. If you think, Oh, that's easy, okay, then Okay, number one, of course, I'm gonna ask, well, what's stopping you? Why aren't you doing it now, if it's so easy, okay, now, once we've had a chuckle about that, then, all right, if 10 minutes is easy, than 20. And if you're like, Whoa, 20 is tough, but I think I could do it, all right. 30, right? I'm just gonna inch it until I just kind of squirm in my seat, like, oh, I don't know. I don't feel like I can win. That's gonna be hard. All right. Hard is okay. Now we can start to say, how do we plan to walk down the path to get there. And as you start to look at then strategy, you know, some people look at strategy by the numbers, that's fine. 5% growth, 10% growth, depending on your industry, I might say 50% growth, which sounds like super crazy to some people, it's the squirm for me, it's the squirm factor.

Mick Spiers: 21:23

Yeah, I'm really liking the visual here. And by the way, the there was something else that you said there that made me chuckle as well, which was really cool. Which was, if you know what you need to do, why aren't you already doing it? So we got back to interference already. So what's stopping you? I love that. And then this squirm factor, what I'm going to put it down to, like, I'm thinking a stress performance curve, like a UX Dotson, or something like this, but, but what I'm feeling when you're saying I'm physically feeling it, by the way, that squirm is good, capitulate is not. So if I'm if I say this is easy, well, the targets not challenging enough. If I'm starting to feel uncomfortable and starting to squirm, we're about there. If I push the needle to the point where I go, You're kidding me, Scott, I'm not even going to try, then I've gone too far come back to squirm. So yeah, if the task that you just set yourself or your team is too easy, you're going to get complacent. You're going to have Parkinson's Law take over, and the time will stretch to out to however long you give it, and it'll and nothing will change. Push to squirm, push again, until you go No way, and then, and then back off and come back to squirm. That's what I'm taking. How does that sit with you?

Scott Burgmeyer: 22:40

I think that's it. Mick, that sounds to me just about perfect. Now I might push a little bit when someone says, No way, that's not possible. I may ask some questions like, Okay, what will prevent that? And as we start to list the reasons for what will prevent that, then it's really, are they excuses, or are they reasonable things like, hey, there's just not enough customers out there, or we couldn't do that next year because we would have to double our shipping or, you know, our shipping fleet, and like, we don't have enough capital to do that. Okay, great. Those seem like logical reasons why we can't do that next year. None of those rationales said we couldn't do it five years from now. So, you know, asking some questions, when they say, hey, no way. I want to understand. Is it no way because they've never thought of it before? Or is it no way because, like, something we have kind of big interference, interference or blockers that are going to prevent us from doing it, like I don't have enough capital to double my fleet. Sounds like a reasonable thing of why I can't do it next year? Well, five years from now, or 10 years from now?

Mick Spiers: 23:49

Yeah, good one, Scott. I'm taking two things away from that as well. This is a very interesting conversation. There's nuggets of gold coming out on a regular basis. The first one is when someone does push back and say, No, it's not possible. The first thing you did was test the hypothesis, you know, almost what would need to be true for this to happen, and what's stopping us for for that to happen. The first thing you tested was, do we know that to be true, like this limitation, this perception that you had in the head? Was it a real perception, or was it fear? Talking is what was, what I was picking up. So see, you're testing when someone puts the road block in place and says, ah, we can never do that. Because test at first, do we know that to be true? And the second one was the temporal aspect, which was, okay, well, we might be able to do it this year, but what horizon Can we do it? Is it five years from now? And if you're going to think strategically, you do need to think in multiple horizons, right?

Scott Burgmeyer: 24:46

Yeah, what do I need to do in the next 12 to 18 months, or 24 months, or three years or five again? Some of it is when I when you start to talk the rate of change, and in the. World today is, I mean, it's just growing exponentially. And so I, you know, I don't know that I can make firm plans three years or five years out, but I can say, really set some pretty big audacious goals to say, you know, maybe I want to double in five years. That that's okay again, that can be the SCORM factor. Does that make you uncomfortable?

Mick Spiers: 25:23

Yeah, it's really good, Scott. And then when I'm I'm going to use the example that you used before, because it was a good one, which was, Oh, we don't have enough customers to make that happen. You might be able to convert that into a question and say, Well, how do we find enough customers to make that happen? So all of a sudden you're having a different conversation, and then you're thinking about the things that you could do this year that are going to pay huge dividends in five years from now.

Scott Burgmeyer: 25:48

And part of strategy, and this is where I see many organizations struggle. Here is when you think about strategy, there's really three, three things you're doing okay, or three potential things you're doing. I really should say, ideally, you're setting the foundation for future success. Okay, so if you think about strategy, you're either going to build something and or you're going to get it out there, people will start to use it. And then third is reap the rewards. It's really hard to do all three in a year time period, depending on how big or hairy that strategy is, typically two is good, so I might build it and have people start to use it, but I'm really not going to reap the rewards until next year. And really kind of setting yourself around that to say, what are we accomplishing? Am I just building it and and preparing for success in the future. Or am I trying to do all three in one shot? And it's okay to do all three in one shot, you just have to understand that that's really hard. Really, really hard.

Mick Spiers: 26:55

What I'm taking away there, Scott, I'm going to exaggerate even further for emphasis and say if you try to do 36 things at once, you'll do 36 things very badly, and you're better off doing one or two things very well than 36 things very badly. But here's the kicker, though, if you do zero things, nothing will change. So the 36 things that you thought of in your strategic thinking, planning might look completely daunting, but if you break it down to well, what are the one or two things that we can start with? All of a sudden, you make momentum and you start moving. If you if you look at the mountain and you look at the 36 and never start, well, if you don't start, nothing will ever change.

Scott Burgmeyer: 27:38

Yeah, there's a great book, Keller, I think, is who wrote it, called The One Thing. And the whole premise of the book is, what are you trying to accomplish? Okay, what's the one thing that, if you did that today, right now, would take you a step closer? Okay, now go do that thing, and once you get that thing done, then figure out what's the next one thing that you have to do to get there.

Mick Spiers: 27:59

Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, Scott. All right, I love it. We've covered a lot around thinking strategically, but I want to go to some of the other things we teased at the start, and that is, how do we develop future leaders? Most of us are working on our own leadership. Leadership is something that you never finish. You're always looking to improve your own leadership. But you're right. We need to develop the next generation of leaders as well. What does that look like for you, Scott?

Scott Burgmeyer: 28:26

You know, I think this, for me, the most humbling thing I heard years ago is a leader is someone who builds other leaders, who builds other leaders. And I think about it, career, I think I've only had one or two people that fit kind of that I've developed them, and they're actually developing other leaders. And so you kind of think about, how is that paying back, which is really humbling to think about honestly. But you start to think about when you ask a leader, what is, what is your job or your work product? And so think about a work product as it's a noun or a noun phrase. It's accountable. Can be made plural with an S or a yes, and you can give it away. And most leaders, in my experience, they start talking about what their company does or what their department does. And really, when you kind of really step back from it, the number one work product a leader has is people, people who can do what you need them to do. And if you think about it even further, my number one work product is leaders who can create other leaders. And so how are you purposefully creating other leaders and enabling them, or to use our terminology earlier, removing their interferences that prevent them from either being an effective leader or effectively creating other leaders?

Mick Spiers: 29:57

Yeah, the word that scream. In my head, as I hear you speak about this, Scott is the word multiplier. So if you are an exceptional leader, but you're not developing other leaders around you, eventually you become the choke point in the business, whereas if you've nurtured other leaders who are nurturing other leaders, it's a not just a multiplication effect, it's an exponential effect, right? When we're now talking fractal geometry of something that takes off. And before you know it, you've removed that limitation, you remove the interference. You're now letting people flourish and grow and grow other leaders. And before you know it, you've you've created something that's meaningful, how does that sit with you, Scott?

Scott Burgmeyer: 30:44

No, it fits great, because we typically talk about it as an organization only can grow to the level of their leader's performance. So if the leader is working down in the business, you actually are holding the organization back, and you will not perform at the level you would like to perform at. That is just a reality, and we all do that. It's not saying, Oh yeah, every day we all do this. We all fall into this and that it's okay. It's over the course of time. Are you working down in the business? Are you up at the level you need to work at? And are you bringing people up? And so thinking about the lot you know, think about I the activity I usually ask leaders to do is list all of your direct reports, and especially those who are people, leaders, okay, who of those do you believe could fulfill your shoes tomorrow or next week? Okay, maybe one or two. That's awesome. That's great. They all probably need some development again. That's all right. Then the follow up question to that is, all right, of their people who is ready to step into their shoes? Oh, that's when that the ship starts to sink a little bit there. Because, yeah, they're, they're getting ready, but they're not bringing people along. They're not and so it is this element of, are they purposefully working on it, or are they busy executing and doing.

Mick Spiers: 32:27

Yeah, really powerful. Scott, there's elements there around the succession planning, but there's also around, are we working on the gaps if we don't have someone that's ready to take over tomorrow, not just leaving it to chance and going, Oh, they'll come good. They'll come good. But what is their gap? Is it a experience gap? Is it do you need to give them more opportunities to learn and grow, like you might look across your business and go, You know what? We've only got one person that knows how to present at a conference. We better start building other people that can present at conferences. So what are the gaps, so that you can build not just leave it to time. Time helps, but intentional action helps even more. How does that sit with you?

Scott Burgmeyer: 33:09

No, 100% I mean, I know in our organization, we have a person who's coming up on a year and what she said, and we actually had an intern here that's been with us for the summer. They've both said, I've grown more in this time than I have ever at all of my jobs combined. Now, part of that is like we thrust development upon people because that we think that's, you know, part of the power of growth. It's really, are you doing it purposefully, or are you doing it by luck? And we talked about this thinking before. Are you pushing them to think, and are you taking time to think about, where is their growth, and having the conversations with them about what do they see for themselves? And do you do the two of you see it the same? Do you see it different, because a lot of times, in my experience, when, when I coach with people, whether there are direct staff or we, you know, we do executive coaching, etc, individuals don't see their own potential. They're limiting themselves.

Mick Spiers: 34:16

Yeah, this comes back to something we said at the start, Scott is seeing something in them that they don't necessarily recognize themselves. But it's also those interesting conversations that you just spoke about, Scott that have that conversation. And I'm going to throw one more thing out that I see a lot in multinational companies is that talent reviews and succession planning happens once a year. That's also not how it happens. These need to be frequent conversations otherwise. What? 12 months from now, you go, Oh, yeah, yeah, we, we didn't do anything with it. Where's the action? Where's the intentional action? Yeah.

Scott Burgmeyer: 34:51

100% and knowing that you're you're in it for the long term, we don't have to race and sprint to the it's no what are we going to. Do Now, what are we going to do next? What's, you know, and we usually look at both what's the technical skill set the individual has to learn, and what's the people skill set, or the leadership skill set that they have to learn. And usually it's the leadership skill set that is the most challenging and takes the most time, especially when you start like this whole the multinational thing is you move from a oh, I'm supervising a team, to I'm managing a department, to oh, now I'm the VP of, you know, this division, or I now am, you know, in some organizations like oh, you have multiple business units, and you're the quote, CEO of that business unit. It's a very different skill set that I have to learn as I transition through each of those levels. And there's things I need to stop doing.

Mick Spiers: 35:54

Absolutely and that comes back to some of the interference again, but yeah, it's really good, and you do need to make those pivots as you go along your career. But the only way you can make those pivots is if you've developed other leaders around you. Otherwise you can never move to the next position if you have not developed other leaders that can grow and take the business in their direction as well. Yeah. Really good skill.

Scott Burgmeyer: 36:17

Yeah. One of the biggest, I would say, nuggets, I would tell people that they can do when they're working to develop people is, and this will seem counterintuitive, we call it stay stupid longer or SSL, okay that your role as a leader is not to give the answer. Your role as a leader is to ask questions, and the more questions you can ask pushes the Individual to Think and Grow at a phenomenal rate.

Mick Spiers: 36:49

That's when you become a true multiplier, Scott, when you ask questions instead of giving answers, because what all they learn. When you give answers, they learn dependence. They learn I need to come to Scott for the answer. When you ask questions, they learn how to think for themselves and then how to grow. Yeah. Really good. Scott, okay, so I want to summarize a couple of things that we've that we've covered today as key takeaways for the audience, and then head towards our Rapid Round. And I've got one other question I need to ask you on the way as well. So have a think about everything we've discussed today. We've discussed interference. What is holding your team back from achieving their full potential? Them, individually and collectively and optimization is often removing things, not not adding things, removing roadblocks, even if it's roadblocks in their own mind, you're helping them overcome the interference that's holding them back. To become a strategic thinker, you need to intentionally carve out time to think. As Scott said, it might be just start with 10 minutes a day and then get into the habit of building in thinking time, not just doing time, not just being reactionary, but actually thinking. If you want to move the needle of the business or your team, the answer is just outside your comfort zone. It's not inside your comfort zone. And this squirm factor, that's going to be my big takeaway today, Scott, if it's making you squirm, it's good. If it's making you capitulate, it's probably too far. But squirm is good. Squirm is where the discomfort is, where the growth will occur. Then from here, we're then thinking about, what is the one thing that you can be doing? You might have 36 things that you could be doing, but what is the one thing that you should be doing that can help you on that journey? And it might be a five year journey, not a three month journey of what you're trying to achieve. What is the one thing that you could be doing today that takes you on the journey and the path that you want to go along. And if you truly want to be successful and be a multiplier, you need to develop leaders around you. You can't be the answer to every question. You need to develop leaders who develop other leaders, and that's when we have a true multiplication effect. All right. Scott, the segue I want to take us on a little pivot, is to ask you about your new book coming out called sink the road less traveled. Tell us why this book. What's it about?

Scott Burgmeyer: 39:17

Yeah. So we through our research, through our experience, what we realized was people really weren't thinking, and we were kind of curious, like, why? What's preventing that? And what we really uncovered is there's a handful of reasons that we actually created personas for. So there's running, Rodney running. Rodney is just go, go, go, go, go. You give Ron, you give Rodney a task, and Rodney is off and running. There are sound bites, Steve. Steve reads the headlines. It reads the subject of the email, and seems to know everything. There is trend. Follower, Terry. She reads the latest book and says, Oh, we must implement this book, because I need to follow the trends. And so there are multiple personas that we could all relate to and or may describe ourselves. And then there are six tactics that to really build a deeper skill set of thinking. And so really, our research kind of drove this, like, why are people not thinking, and how can you start to think? Or how can you get your organization or your team start to think more or deeper? And kind of our tagline is, you, you know, our thinking is as deep as a parking lot puddle, yeah, so, you know, when you start to think about the depth of our thinking, it really is, you know, you think ideally a parking lot puddle is only, you know, an inch, or, you know, a few centimeters deep. We don't think deeply. We just, it's stimulus response, stimulus response. And really getting our brains to stop taking these shortcuts allows us to think clearer and think better and think deeper. And in our research, what we have found is as organizations have implemented these tactics, they're seeing 5, 10, 30 plus percent improvement in their outcomes.

Mick Spiers: 41:25

All right, so I'm going to say you've just introduced some squirm factor for the audience. Ask yourself that question, do you really think deeply? Do you align yourself when Scott described running Rodney was that you do? You know a sound bite? Steve, like it's a really challenging question. Scott, and are we thinking deeply, and are we taking the intentional action to carve out time to think deeply and not just be stimulus response, stimulus response, like you said, and just be in constant autopilot or firefighting mode, whatever it looks like for you, are you taking the time to really think deeply as to what really needs to happen in your business for you to move forward? All right, Scott, that's a wonderful thing. And please, we'll put the link to the book in the in the show notes. I think that's one for everyone to take a look at and attack us now to our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests, Scott, so what's the one thing you know now, Scott Burgmeyer, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Scott Burgmeyer: 42:29

You know, for me, it's the importance of relationship, and people can never be underrated. I think you know, be having deeper relationships with people in business. And when I think of business me in my 20s, was no, we have to get results, results, results, results. And we get results through people.

Mick Spiers: 42:54

Yeah, we achieve success through people, not at the expense of people. And that's when true success happens. Otherwise it'll just be short term success. It won't be long one. I love it. Scott, what's your favorite book?

Scott Burgmeyer: 43:06

My favorite book is actually a book called Leadership and self deception. It's by the Arbinger group, and it's a book, you know, early in my career that I had the opportunity to kind of be exposed to and it actually became a book, probably for about 10 years. Whenever we would go on vacation, I would read it every year on vacation, just to reground myself, push as hard.

Mick Spiers: 43:35

All right, I'm going to look into that one myself, and it's a good one for the audience. Okay, what's your favorite quote?

Scott Burgmeyer: 43:42

My favorite quote is, and I'll, I won't, probably get it exactly right. So some listener will say that's not the exact quote, but it's something like great leaders say no to good ideas. It's out of Collins. Is Good to Great it really is. How do you be discerning? How do you you know, if I say yes to everything, what am I saying no to?

Mick Spiers: 44:07

Yeah, good one. That is hard, right? Really good Scott. And finally, there's going to be people that are truly enthralled by the things that you've shared today, either you individually Scott and your books and for their own personal growth, or thinking about how they can take their organization on journeys of optimization and improvement. How do people find you, if they'd like to know more about you? And the become more group?

Scott Burgmeyer: 44:32

Yeah, the quick and easy way is on our website, becomemoregp.com, that so everyone can get to it and see us. And that's a great way to connect, of course, on through LinkedIn and and most social media. But becomemoregp.com, is really the quickest.

Mick Spiers: 44:50

Yeah, brilliant. Scott and I noticed on your website there's also the links to the books there as well, etc, so, and also your services and your workshops, etc. So Thank. Thank you so much, Scott. I've really thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation. I walk away richer and feeling inspired to take action, looking at my own schedule, looking at my own thinking approach, you've inspired me into action, and I know that you've done so with the audience as well. Thank you so much for the gift of your time and your wisdom.

Scott Burgmeyer: 45:20

Mick, I appreciate it, and it's been great. Thank you.

Mick Spiers: 45:24

What a powerful conversation with Scott Burgmeyer. We explored the idea that leadership is so much more than delivering results today. It's about building the leaders of tomorrow. Scott reminded us that the best leaders think strategically and teach others to do the same. Create safe environments where Curiosity, learning and even mistakes are part of growth and above all, intentionally developing future leaders rather than leaving it to chance. I'd love to hear your reflections. How are you creating space for others to step up and lead? Share your thoughts with us on LinkedIn or YouTube, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if today's discussion resonated with you, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast. It helps us spread these important leadership lessons even further, and be sure to join us next time when I'll be speaking with Joe Davis about the power of generous leadership. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project, mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo, and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.